Christien

I really disagree with the notion of not discussing these things. Sure, keep names and even car details confidential to respect privacy, but I think we need to talk more about this. Could you imagine if base jumpers didn't discuss the inherent danger of their sport? Or free climbers? Ours isn't quite that dangerous, but the potential is there.

That's twice this year I've heard about people leaving the track for the hospital (my dad being one of them). Now, I'm no seasoned veteran, but I've probably done 30 or 40 days at Mosport over the last 6 years, and this year is the first I've heard of it at lapping days.

I count myself lucky - I've crashed once, on my first solo lap at Mosport. Not my first day, not my first session, my first lap. I didn't even make it around the damn track once. I lost it in 5 and hit the inside wall backwards. $1800 in body work, so peanuts, really. But it scared the bloody **** out of me, and ever since then I've driven carefully, at no more than what I feel is 8/10 at most. I've gotten myself into trouble a couple times since then (too hot in a turn, etc), but the car has always been able to handle it, which confirms that I'm not driving near the limit.

But really, putting a lid on discussion isn't going to stop things from happening. Are we really worried about insurance adjusters prowling our forum and gathering evidence? Nobody here posts under their full name - can you imagine a courtroom scene where some insurance twit tries to offer up evidence he found on the internet under some username to a judge? He'd get laughed out of court. I say let's keep the discussions going. Maybe there's a lot more carnage than we really know about, and it's time to shed any false sense of security we may have.

chopperzz

I question blanket statements like, "driving up our insurance rates"

I can't see the connection between track accidents and raising insurance costs? Anyone?

Christien

Only in the sense that the track insurance (which is part of our registration fees) could go up. I'm sure that's a special policy that's not governed the same way our car or house policies are, and if Mosport's insurance company smells too many lawyers in the water, they may want to buffer themselves.

Torontoworker

What's interesting to me is that the cost of the street cars at Mosport and the value of the dedicated race cars we have in the region. For the most part when we have race cars go off track - the damage isn't as great in value as when a road legal car goes off, (exceptions being ALMS type cars and high buck open wheel cars).

Mostly because the race cars are stripped down and lighter then a road car and the cages required by CASC really put a lot of strength into the shell the damage is mainly body panels or running gear and rad's. We find most of the race cars are self repaired and back on the track either the same weekend or for following races as the owners seem to be hands on types when it comes to car repairs.

The road legal crowd tend to be dealer or indy repair types and hence the costs can climb to extraordinary amounts when you are paying others for the repairs. Add in the fact that the street cars are heavier - sometimes by a factor of 30% or more and the forces generated by this extra weight when they hit solid items is way higher - hence the higher costs.

The sophistication and technology of today's cars such as newer Porches, Ferrari's, Vette's, M3's etc seems to have allowed people to arrive in braking sections of Mosport at much higher speeds then mid 80's race cars. So what we have is driver training standards for lapping drivers that would have been ok in 20 year old technology - but certainly not for people driving cars that are cresting the hill at station 7 doing 250+kph.

We also see people turning off drivers aids thinking they don't need them and we have other drivers depending on these driver aid's not understanding that these devices/systems can be over come by slippery conditions or just plain old driving into the corner way to quickly. Physics 101.

This isn't a slam against UCR education or any other group - it's just what we are seeing at track days lately.

I know what the solution is but none of you will like it. (Well some might)

Buy a track car. There I said it. I see guys buying ex-race cars or turning that $6000 944S into a track car and having a whale of a good time and when they have an off - the cost for that rare write off is what they paid for the frame, less the motor they sell off and parts such as the fuel cell and cage resold. Most of the region guys are racing cars that have been well amortized cost wise over several seasons where if they stuff it into the tires at cor 5 and wreak the front end - they are off on their iphones back in the pits buying used parts to pick up the next day because they can afford it.

Street track lapping day guys; they may have loans (don't even go to Mosport with a lease!!!) and are nervous as a result - get in a few track days without damage and then there is that dangerous point where they believe they can go a lot faster... Even if they don't over do it - who has fun driving 7/10's?

I've had far too many days comforting guys at lapping days who have wreaked their street cars at Mosport to the point where marshaling these lapping days just isn't much fun any more for me.

I'm not to proud to admit I've scared myself a few times and years back rolled a Iroc Z28 down in 2A without much damage (needed a windshield and a fender). Better to be lucky then good mode!

The cost to repair that GT3 that spun out on the tunnel under cor 9 and backed into the cement wall at 40kph was crazy. There was a GT2RS that barely hit at the exit of 5B recently (photos around here somewhere) and I am led to believe that it was a write off because of labour hours alone.

So how can it be fun if the risk factor is so high for small errors?

Perhaps the end result of the huge expense of tracking the new Porsche's will be 996's (because of their depredation rates) may make a popular track day car soon? 944's are already there now. Many are being saved from the wreckers and being gutted and rebuilt for a new life as a track car.

Sorry for the long post but sometimes you've got a lot of time on your hands while at the track thinking there has to be a better way...

FYI: The guy at the gas pumps at Mosport is named Brenden - he flagged with me at the Honda Indy and the lady in the track ambulance is Hali Mai.

FFaust

All tracks demand respect, Mosport a bit more. A foot or two off the line, and it's a whole other experience. Balance can be lost, and you certainly need to be on the ball.

Have fun out there, but stay safe.

Coolant spill was a 996 TT from T1 to T3 with no collateral damage, just a lengthy cleanup.

Christien

I do. I don't go to the track to set new lap times, or prove how fast I can drive. I go to the track to enjoy my car the way it was meant to be driven. And I have a lot of fun doing it. I've thought about buying a track car before, even went so far as to pick up a 944 a few years ago (turned out to be too much of a basket case to make safe for the track, so it became my winter beater for a couple years). But then I remind myself why I go to the track, and it's simply to enjoy driving my car fast around corners. Well, fast in the 1972 sense...


Meh, one less Camaro in the world...

Ronan

Torontoworker:
Very good post,that. It seems to me that this is a voluntary adult pursuit, and it can and does happen in all brands and organizations.
I don't think its a great idea to publish pics or specific car info but it seems to me that general discussions on events are appropriate.

gbuff

The Golden Rule applies to either race car or street car: Don't bring a car to the track that you can't afford to replace. I drive a Mini and have an absolute blast because I simply get a kick out of driving it (even with only 115hp) AND if something happens I can take comfort in the fact that it won't ruin me financially.

Gary

GentlemanRacer

FYI: The guy at the gas pumps at Mosport is named Brenden - he flagged with me at the Honda Indy and the lady in the track ambulance is Hali Mai.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I remember his face, but always forget his name.

ZR8ED

I am seeing this more and more with guys spending multiple thousands of dollars on cars with very little resale value begin to shy away from the track days knowing that they have modified their cars to a point that they do not want to risk the damage to something so expensive to build. (This happened to me as well) I solved this little problem by buying a less expensive car to "toy" with. If i smash it, I will not be happy, but I also would not have thrown away years of savings, blood sweat and tears. Know your risk level before you go to the track, and make sure you can sell that to the wife! One track day vs life long marriage!

I totally aggree with the track car idea if you want to push 8/10th's or beyond with out the major financial risk to your street/daily driver.

Torontoworker

No offense - I should have qualified that by saying 7/10's of the car's abilities, not the drivers. The problem being in that there is a great difference in speed you arrive in a corner with when in a Corolla or Civic compared to say an M3 or GT3. V=MC2 (Make that 'expensive' mass. )

I use the example of the competitors in Ontario Formula 1200 (Vee's). No down force, 1200cc engines (VW based) - top speed maybe 130kph without a head wind and on street radials. Doesn't sound like fun? You wouldn't believe the races they have! A field of them all tank slapping through cor 2 in the rain - no one lifting (anyone lifts and the whole field goes off!) A couple of the drivers used to race GT1 class sedans and race the 1200's because it's more fun and they claim the series has made them a better driver as more skill is needed to pass then just using more power. I tend to agree.


Hey it was a good learning car. Trying to tame that stupid axle hop under braking really taught me some skills on heal-toe throttle blipping! Now people with PDK or F458's with auto blip don't have to worry about such mundane tasks! But with that solid live axle and fuel level decreasing the thing should have been entered in the Calgary Stampede some days. Anyway it was all I could afford at the time. I later sold it and it soldered on with someone else until the old guardrail drivers right at cor 9 jumped in front of it.

On the issue concerning talking about track day incidents:

I think it's ok to talk about incidents in a general way without using names or pictures. We talk about incidents at the track all the time as a learning tool for our workers. As Performance and Safety Director of our club I am always talking about incidents and what we learned from each incident and how we can do better next time. We don't gloat over how some guy wreaked his F430 in cor 1. We talk about how/why it happened and where cars end up landing and how to be safe. We just had another crash on the backstraight during our last regional race - it was a clone of the ALMS 997 crash of last year. This time an older 911 had the same thing happen - got tagged from behind and tore down many yards of rails and broke many posts. 2 hour down time. The track people learned how to repair the rails a lot quicker the second time around! Our crew are a lot further from the rails now then before the 997 crash. A learning experience that we took to heart. What we do as volunteers CAN be dangerous. We minimize our risks but not the fact that risks are there when we recruit new members. Eyes wide open mode.

The same should apply for new lapping day drivers. Unfortunately there are some for profit lapping day companies and car clubs out there that may feel that the internet is an unfair medium that makes each online discussion of an incident seem as if it's the wild west. That's the risk one takes in an open society and as a business owner/club director.

I personally think it's an over reaction to give people a blanket suggestion that they not talk about this on the internet. There is nothing wrong with discussions that remind people that there ARE risks undertaken when doing track days - but there IS a line crossed when we publicize in a negative way or identify someones misfortune unfairly. Just my 2 cents.

PPo

After many years of driving fast turbo cars and other stuff on the street and at the track, I end up with a 924S race car with barely 170bhp. Simple reason, it's a lot of fun, and if I roll it into a ball, I have a much greater chance of walking away without injury, and I am 100% financially prepared to walk away from the wrecked car with a shoulder shrug and a laugh.

Lessoned learned.

My next car...a 996 or Boxster for the street... when the 924S gets old too old or wrecked... the street car gets a cage and sits on a trailer!!

911 Rod

Good points by some.
I was in the black run group and was behind the rollover in 2. Ever tried to brake in 2 because the car in front of you is going backwards? Not fun. I found that the drivers were really pushing it for the most part. A different line for every car? Scary to watch. I drive my pace and line and let them go.
BTW We were not asked to not talk about anything relating to UCR incidents. We were asked that people who have cameras in their cars not post on u-tube as the laps could be timed and they do not want to jeopardise the insurance coverage.

FFaust

^^ Correct.

So, the 924, were you able to figure out what happened? Just trying to learn from the incident.

Hear ya about braking in 2. Whenever I see that I might catch up to someone there, and since you can't really tell once they're over the crest and you lose sight of them, I slow right down, to make sure that I don't catch them in 2; don't want to have to brake OR change my line once committed.

TrackdayRSA.

I was told that the driver in question had just been moved up to black, and that was his first session out in that group....went out and overcooked it into 2, got sideways into the grass at the bottom of 2, and hit a rut which caused the rollover.