Weird speeding ticket
09-02-2010, 05:07 PM
#32
Racer
Well leave it to Chris - you got to stir the pot don't ya .... there are arrest authorities under the HTA - but in this case it sounds like a straight speeding so " arrested " no, Investigative detention, hmm, yes. So if .... asking or stating your uncomfortable sitting there - ask - why not. Officer has all your ID so taking off is not the smartest thing, I would do a quick check of you and vehicle ( got to go home to the family - so saftey first ) and do buisness at next exit. As for taking off on your own - not the thing to be doing... as we are responsible for your safety while stopped and you are under investigative detention. I for one would not be happy - and most likely tell you. Not sure what else to tell you - Chris as much as you don't like police - when stopped you realy are not incharge so telling the officer anything is not wise - I do mean this in a friendly, pal, kind of way - so I mean no disrespect to you.... but I still at 43 call my friends parents Mr and Mrs as a show of respect. Sometimes it will be easier than others, that is for sure.
Brad
Brad
09-02-2010, 05:40 PM
#33
Race Car
It's not so much that I don't like police, in fact a good buddy of mine is on the London police force, and another friend of ours is an auxilliary with the OPP in (can't remember small town near Peterborough). It's more that I feel they (and the OPP in particular) tend to get overzealous in carrying out their duties. The PR dept of the OPP has definitely been on vacation lately, I think everyone would agree with that. My entire exposure to the OPP over the last few years has been speeding tickets and news reports from Caledonia.
I may have sounded a bit more aggressive saying "tell, don't ask" - put myself in that situation and I would probably say something polite but firm, like "look, we've been here for 20 minutes and I feel this is really unsafe sitting here. Let's drive to the next exit and wait there".
I've never heard of investigative detention, but that makes sense. Where does the limit come, though? What if you're waiting for 2 or 3 hours? How long can you be detained for? I'm sure there's no legal limit, but for practical purposes? The officer is getting paid by the hour, so maybe he/she doesn't care, but everyone else does. And really, what's accomplished by detaining someone for that long, while waiting for a local officer? As you said earlier, you can get the info and mail the ticket.
And yes, I *do* have to stir the pot
I may have sounded a bit more aggressive saying "tell, don't ask" - put myself in that situation and I would probably say something polite but firm, like "look, we've been here for 20 minutes and I feel this is really unsafe sitting here. Let's drive to the next exit and wait there".
I've never heard of investigative detention, but that makes sense. Where does the limit come, though? What if you're waiting for 2 or 3 hours? How long can you be detained for? I'm sure there's no legal limit, but for practical purposes? The officer is getting paid by the hour, so maybe he/she doesn't care, but everyone else does. And really, what's accomplished by detaining someone for that long, while waiting for a local officer? As you said earlier, you can get the info and mail the ticket.
And yes, I *do* have to stir the pot
09-02-2010, 05:41 PM
#34
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Brad, I'm glad you spoke up as well. It's nice to get an understanding from the otherside.
Most of you would like me to stay away from threads like this .... oh but I can't. I don't try to give legal advise or put water on the thread - this is for you guys to banter and vent - I'm not here to prevent this. On the subject of being pulled over by one copper and ticketed buy another - legal ( although rare ) there is no problems with this - eg. I stop a car out of my county - give my evidence to the issuing officer. In that case I am the witness ( same as any witness to say a traffic accident ) Also remember that the officer has 30 days in which to issue a part one - so I see something really stupid on my day off - I can make notes and issue a ticket in that 30 days. I could even see something in my county on my day off and find that the person lives in Pickle Lake - I could contact officers there to issue a ticket to the offender - as long as its in 30 days. Now I have to ID the driver and the ticket has to be the driver - so if the driver is not the owner there is a problem - but a little investigation could lead to the driver being identified. How am I doing so far?
So if the vehicle was a clearly marked police vehicle - officer most likely not on a day off - so most likely out of area. Legal stop.
As to pacing a vehcile - speedo is calibrated ( for that vehicle and how that vehcile is retrofitted ) So pacing is a legit method of acquiring a speed of offending vehicle. Remember we do this every day we work - so you get good at it just like every other thing you practice at.
Not sure what double overtime is ( except in hockey ) but court is usually on a dayshift - but yes if its a day off we get compensated just as everyone else gets compensated for overtime ( not self employed folks ... sorry ). So hearing it from a friend of a friend who knows a friend of a cop - lol . OH and I have said this before - we are REQUIRED to show for court - its part of our job so if it happens that it is a day off that is when it is. Most defendants are asked if the date is good for them - the cop ... almost never. So not showing for court is usually met with some form of punishment.
Not sure what else to say - I not bitching or trying to dampen the venting - just adding another dimension to the converstaion - insight if you will.
Happy to talk as always - PM or email
Brad
So if the vehicle was a clearly marked police vehicle - officer most likely not on a day off - so most likely out of area. Legal stop.
As to pacing a vehcile - speedo is calibrated ( for that vehicle and how that vehcile is retrofitted ) So pacing is a legit method of acquiring a speed of offending vehicle. Remember we do this every day we work - so you get good at it just like every other thing you practice at.
Not sure what double overtime is ( except in hockey ) but court is usually on a dayshift - but yes if its a day off we get compensated just as everyone else gets compensated for overtime ( not self employed folks ... sorry ). So hearing it from a friend of a friend who knows a friend of a cop - lol . OH and I have said this before - we are REQUIRED to show for court - its part of our job so if it happens that it is a day off that is when it is. Most defendants are asked if the date is good for them - the cop ... almost never. So not showing for court is usually met with some form of punishment.
Not sure what else to say - I not bitching or trying to dampen the venting - just adding another dimension to the converstaion - insight if you will.
Happy to talk as always - PM or email
Brad
09-02-2010, 05:59 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Stirring the pot keeps stuff moving. Keep stirring.
09-02-2010, 06:46 PM
#36
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Thread Starter
After talkling to an RCMP last night and reading Brad's post today, I was convinced that what happened is legal but rare and the paralegal confirmed this too.
Was told that if he takes it, strongly beleives the case is winnable. Winnable means dismissed in this case.
I'm going to think it over the weekend and decide what to do by Tuesday morning.
As I said before, I usually pay my tickets and move along but this time I'll give it a couple of days to think it over.
There might be a mistake on the ticket too. The time the ticket was witten out by the second officer was around 17:45 but at the top corner, 14:55 is written (the time I was pulled over by the first office). Now if this is considerred a mistake, and if it is, is it enough to get the whole thing thrown out on a technicality?
Was told that if he takes it, strongly beleives the case is winnable. Winnable means dismissed in this case.
I'm going to think it over the weekend and decide what to do by Tuesday morning.
As I said before, I usually pay my tickets and move along but this time I'll give it a couple of days to think it over.
There might be a mistake on the ticket too. The time the ticket was witten out by the second officer was around 17:45 but at the top corner, 14:55 is written (the time I was pulled over by the first office). Now if this is considerred a mistake, and if it is, is it enough to get the whole thing thrown out on a technicality?
09-02-2010, 07:17 PM
#37
Racer
Chris - Well I hope I didn't center you out to much (not my intention)- just you happened to be the one who posted , but your posts tend to show you have had some unpleasant dealings - yes as a group police can seem overzealous - remember this is a group of type A personalities that are very self motivated and driven people.
Investigative detention - is but a tool in the toolbox - used correctly and articulated a very useful tool - as for time limits - within reason
stir, stir, stir - good conversation is good for the soul ... or is that soup :-)
Brad
Investigative detention - is but a tool in the toolbox - used correctly and articulated a very useful tool - as for time limits - within reason
stir, stir, stir - good conversation is good for the soul ... or is that soup :-)
Brad
09-02-2010, 08:05 PM
#38
Race Car
Yes, my dealings with police have been almost 100% negative. Aside from those I mentioned already:
-used to live above a nightclub back in university. Crazy noise and fights Thurs. Fri. Sat. nights at 2am including store windows smashed, brawls, etc. Multiple calls to Kingston police = min. 45 minutes to show. They eventually gave me the internal direct line to dispatch.
-car stolen 2 years ago, Hamilton police couldn't be bothered to lift a finger beyond giving me a case # for insurance.
-multiple issues at the dealership - catalytic converters stolen off multiple trucks, showed up one morning to find a caravan on cinder blocks after the wheels were stolen, London police couldn't care less.
It's the typical story - there's never a cop when you need one, but they're present in spades when you don't (i.e. speeding). That said, I still have great respect for those that deal with domestics, homeless, assaults and other crimes of the person, and of course big things like major criminal investigations, etc.
Oh, and admittedly my last speeding ticket was 100% deserved
He wrote me way down and I didn't fight it. Something about scratching each other's back...
09-02-2010, 08:38 PM
#39
Racer
Chris - Don't know if you're old enough to remember a movie "Bar Fly" - Mickey Rourke's Character was a drunk that like to fight (get beat-up) on a regular basis. Anyway - at one point he and the female lead are fleeing a fights scene and the cops are patrolling around - she says 'What, don't you like the police". he replies " ya sure I like the cops, but I like them better when there not around".
I hear what your saying about response times - a major complaint by a lot of folks....
As for the theft ... beyond SOCO there is not much the street guy can do, really. I have had good luck with some stuff, but I worked a small town...so word would get around - thieves can help but brag. I did enjoy SOCO but most complainants/victims were disappointed - I think they thought CSI or CSI Miami and some leggy redhead/blonde was coming to dust for prints - major disappointment when I walked through the door :-)
Brad
I hear what your saying about response times - a major complaint by a lot of folks....
As for the theft ... beyond SOCO there is not much the street guy can do, really. I have had good luck with some stuff, but I worked a small town...so word would get around - thieves can help but brag. I did enjoy SOCO but most complainants/victims were disappointed - I think they thought CSI or CSI Miami and some leggy redhead/blonde was coming to dust for prints - major disappointment when I walked through the door :-)
Brad
09-02-2010, 09:51 PM
#41
Race Car
I know the movie, but can't remember that scene. I remember seeing a bit of it many many years ago. But yeah, that sounds familiar
I guess the complaint comes down to 'what do we, the middle-class folks who pay the vast majority of the taxes, get from the police?' and the answer is 'pretty much nothing'. Which would be fine, if we didn't feel harassed by revenue-generating speed patrols. I'm of course extremizing to make a point, but the sentiment is there, and it's not unfounded. It might be different if the officer at the side of the road had the attitude of "I'm just doing my job", rather than the holier-than-thou stance that is so often encountered. Case in point, the only time I've ever got a ticket in the 911, ironically going to visit my OPP-auxiliary friend near Peterborough, I got nabbed doing something mild - 102 or something in a 90 zone. Enough for a ticket, but certainly not anything reckless. The officer suggested I "take it to the track" or something like that. When I (very politely) pointed to the PCA sticker in the back window and said "I do, actually", I instantly failed the "attitude test" and he gave me everything he could, and seemed to relish doing so. Certainly he had a condescending attitude towards me, which, considering my politeness and respect, seemed unfounded. Even my wife (who is the first one to roll her eyes at me!) agreed he was a *****.
I guess the complaint comes down to 'what do we, the middle-class folks who pay the vast majority of the taxes, get from the police?' and the answer is 'pretty much nothing'. Which would be fine, if we didn't feel harassed by revenue-generating speed patrols. I'm of course extremizing to make a point, but the sentiment is there, and it's not unfounded. It might be different if the officer at the side of the road had the attitude of "I'm just doing my job", rather than the holier-than-thou stance that is so often encountered. Case in point, the only time I've ever got a ticket in the 911, ironically going to visit my OPP-auxiliary friend near Peterborough, I got nabbed doing something mild - 102 or something in a 90 zone. Enough for a ticket, but certainly not anything reckless. The officer suggested I "take it to the track" or something like that. When I (very politely) pointed to the PCA sticker in the back window and said "I do, actually", I instantly failed the "attitude test" and he gave me everything he could, and seemed to relish doing so. Certainly he had a condescending attitude towards me, which, considering my politeness and respect, seemed unfounded. Even my wife (who is the first one to roll her eyes at me!) agreed he was a *****.
09-02-2010, 10:45 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
A 102 in a 90 and getting an attitude is worthy of the title '*****'.
IMO policing on the highways is totally wrong.
Forget that the limit on the highways at 125 is different but in my visit to the Netherlands I saw really good enforcement methods and not directed to speed alone either. It started with totally stealthy cars such as a C Class sedans or 3 series 4 doors or even a Volvo wagon. The officers were in street clothes and the patrol cars had a rising sign in the back window. POLITIE.... with a flashing arrow. Driving discipline was extraordinary and I asked my cousins about this and they agreed that there was no lenience if you were pulled over, 2 persons to a car with 360 degree video. The police brought the driver to their car and showed the incident and advised the driver of the violation, similar to here with points and really big monetary penalties. Now should your car have out of country plates then you lose your car unless you can pay the ticket. Cops will drive to the nearest ATM to assist in this transaction. This scene is played out on national television in a very popular TV show Sunday nights. A couple of things I found while driving there were A. absolutely no passing on the right. B. Do not EVER drive across a solid line C. Don't go on the shoulder marked as 'Emergency only' unless your having heart attack. D. Drivers pay attention, because you just don't know.
End result. Traffic moves along smartly without left lane hogs and cell phone idiots and drivers signal lane changes. I liked the roundabouts and lack of stop signs in favour of yield signs too.
I don't know the stats for the country but it is a small place with really nice roads with traffic that seems to flow quite nicely. It's a culture thing I guess.
IMO policing on the highways is totally wrong.
Forget that the limit on the highways at 125 is different but in my visit to the Netherlands I saw really good enforcement methods and not directed to speed alone either. It started with totally stealthy cars such as a C Class sedans or 3 series 4 doors or even a Volvo wagon. The officers were in street clothes and the patrol cars had a rising sign in the back window. POLITIE.... with a flashing arrow. Driving discipline was extraordinary and I asked my cousins about this and they agreed that there was no lenience if you were pulled over, 2 persons to a car with 360 degree video. The police brought the driver to their car and showed the incident and advised the driver of the violation, similar to here with points and really big monetary penalties. Now should your car have out of country plates then you lose your car unless you can pay the ticket. Cops will drive to the nearest ATM to assist in this transaction. This scene is played out on national television in a very popular TV show Sunday nights. A couple of things I found while driving there were A. absolutely no passing on the right. B. Do not EVER drive across a solid line C. Don't go on the shoulder marked as 'Emergency only' unless your having heart attack. D. Drivers pay attention, because you just don't know.
End result. Traffic moves along smartly without left lane hogs and cell phone idiots and drivers signal lane changes. I liked the roundabouts and lack of stop signs in favour of yield signs too.
I don't know the stats for the country but it is a small place with really nice roads with traffic that seems to flow quite nicely. It's a culture thing I guess.
09-02-2010, 11:13 PM
#43
Race Car
Jim, I'm not sure it's a fair comparison. The GTA has some of the most congested roads in Canada and the US. I've heard stats that traffic (measured per capita, per km, whatever) on the 401 during rush hour is second only to the Santa Monica Freeway.
However your point about actually policing safety issues is very well taken.
I'll believe that speeding tickets are about safety, not revenue generation, the day the police announce that all speeding ticket revenue will be donated to charities.
However your point about actually policing safety issues is very well taken.
I'll believe that speeding tickets are about safety, not revenue generation, the day the police announce that all speeding ticket revenue will be donated to charities.
09-02-2010, 11:57 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Having seen both areas, Netherlands pop. 17 mil with the highest population in an area slightly larger than the GTA is a study in traffic management and if there ever was jurisdiction to squeeze a penny it was the Dutch. I'm sure they invented methods of generating public revenue. So while I don't disagree with you. I believe that the roadway policing methods in our area are essentially antiquated and dis-functional.
09-03-2010, 12:56 AM
#45
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Brad.... I knew you couldn't resist.
Just like in life, it only takes one bad COP to give them all a bad name.
I Would be an *** too if all I did was deal with other peoples Bull Sh-t all day long.
Just like in life, it only takes one bad COP to give them all a bad name.
I Would be an *** too if all I did was deal with other peoples Bull Sh-t all day long.