Weird speeding ticket
08-31-2010, 08:23 PM
#1
Captain Obvious
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Weird speeding ticket
Go myself into an interesting incident with the OPP today.
Got pulled over on the 407 today. At first I though this will be a regular traffic stop but, where it started to different was when the officer said to wait as he has asked another OPP officer to come. Once the other officer arrived, they were going to figure out what to do. So we waited 45min for the other officer to show up. When he did, the two had a few minute discussion and then the first one came over to explain what will happen. Till this point it all seemed sort of normal. BUT when he started explaing what the two of them will do is when it all started to sound really strange. The first officer said that I wil be issued a speeding vilation based on that he paced me with his truck's speedometer and a GPS, but there was no mention of a radar. He said I was going well over 50km/h of the speed limit but never said exactly how fast. I was going to get a ticket for 49 over and get to keep my vehicle. However what makes it strage to me was that the ticket will not be issued by the first officer but the second one. So when the second officer went to write the ticket, I asked the first one, why isn't he issuing it. He said he's from London and doesn't have a ticket book and also is not familiar with the local courts, so he asked a local OPP officer to come and write the ticket instead. NOW when the ticket was handed over, under the R was 151...I think this is the speed they put down as the original infraction but if I was going well over 50, why wasn't something substantially more put down as a note. The actual ticket is for 49km/h over.
This entire incident seems off to me.......can one officer ask another to write a speeding ticket and is a speedometer and/or a GPS and admisable form of speed recording device?
Normally I pay my tickets and move on but this one seems wrong to me.
Got pulled over on the 407 today. At first I though this will be a regular traffic stop but, where it started to different was when the officer said to wait as he has asked another OPP officer to come. Once the other officer arrived, they were going to figure out what to do. So we waited 45min for the other officer to show up. When he did, the two had a few minute discussion and then the first one came over to explain what will happen. Till this point it all seemed sort of normal. BUT when he started explaing what the two of them will do is when it all started to sound really strange. The first officer said that I wil be issued a speeding vilation based on that he paced me with his truck's speedometer and a GPS, but there was no mention of a radar. He said I was going well over 50km/h of the speed limit but never said exactly how fast. I was going to get a ticket for 49 over and get to keep my vehicle. However what makes it strage to me was that the ticket will not be issued by the first officer but the second one. So when the second officer went to write the ticket, I asked the first one, why isn't he issuing it. He said he's from London and doesn't have a ticket book and also is not familiar with the local courts, so he asked a local OPP officer to come and write the ticket instead. NOW when the ticket was handed over, under the R was 151...I think this is the speed they put down as the original infraction but if I was going well over 50, why wasn't something substantially more put down as a note. The actual ticket is for 49km/h over.
This entire incident seems off to me.......can one officer ask another to write a speeding ticket and is a speedometer and/or a GPS and admisable form of speed recording device?
Normally I pay my tickets and move on but this one seems wrong to me.
08-31-2010, 08:58 PM
#2
Race Director
I'd fight this one.
Sometimes they write cryptic notes if they reduce the offence. The actual speed is written up top and what they charge you with is written in the box.
If you go to court and the officer who charged you is asked about what he saw the only thing he can truthfully say is nothing. The officer who saw you may or may not go to court.
What was the first guy driving? OPP truck or his own? If his own, what makes his driving ok but yours at 1xx km/h dangerous? As far as I know speedometers have to be calibrated at a regular interval for the "pace" speed to be admissable.
Interesting story, here in Ottawa a guy gets charged because the officer saw the guy speeding. No radar. No pacing. Nothing but the officer's ability to guess how fast the guy was going. Guy loses his car. Guy fights it in court. Court throws out the charge. Crown is re-prosecuting.
All in the name of safety -er revenue generation.
Sometimes they write cryptic notes if they reduce the offence. The actual speed is written up top and what they charge you with is written in the box.
If you go to court and the officer who charged you is asked about what he saw the only thing he can truthfully say is nothing. The officer who saw you may or may not go to court.
What was the first guy driving? OPP truck or his own? If his own, what makes his driving ok but yours at 1xx km/h dangerous? As far as I know speedometers have to be calibrated at a regular interval for the "pace" speed to be admissable.
Interesting story, here in Ottawa a guy gets charged because the officer saw the guy speeding. No radar. No pacing. Nothing but the officer's ability to guess how fast the guy was going. Guy loses his car. Guy fights it in court. Court throws out the charge. Crown is re-prosecuting.
All in the name of safety -er revenue generation.
08-31-2010, 08:59 PM
#3
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08-31-2010, 09:21 PM
#4
Captain Obvious
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He was driving an OPP Ford F350 pickup with an aluminium bed cap. It didn't look like a highway patrol vehicle but more like something built for off-road use but that's just my oppinion.
08-31-2010, 09:36 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
Chances are you got nailed by an officer on an other duty and you attracted his attention. Enough ambiguity to bring in front of a JP though.
08-31-2010, 10:38 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
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was the first officer in uniform?
I've had a similar situation where I was driving my truck and followed on a 2 lane country road by another truck (toyota+ford). In a couple places I conducted a legal pass, and was travelling at 90-95 in an 80 zone. both times the truck followed me and in one case he had to be very aggressive given the fact that the oncoming traffic had changed prior to his pass. Later during my 3rd pass he followed me and his dash lit up behind me. I immediately pulled over and had my license ready for him as he approached my door. After a few minutes he came back and said that he followed me doing well over the speed limit but he wasnt going to fine me because he was off duty. I was dumbstruck.
As i drove away i became angry because I had absolutely no idea who this guy was and I just handed him my home address, which is full of my car and a handful of motorcycles. So I called the police. After an hour on the side of the road I was joined by a uniformed police officer who verified that the person was indeed a police office and he shouldn't have pulled me over and he was going to be reprimanded for doing so (which is probably bull****) But I was smoking hot and making a pretty valid point that this was wrong.
my point to you is maybe the person that originally pulled you over didn't have the right to and his effort to engage another officer to give you a ticket is completely bull**** and you should fight it.
I've had a similar situation where I was driving my truck and followed on a 2 lane country road by another truck (toyota+ford). In a couple places I conducted a legal pass, and was travelling at 90-95 in an 80 zone. both times the truck followed me and in one case he had to be very aggressive given the fact that the oncoming traffic had changed prior to his pass. Later during my 3rd pass he followed me and his dash lit up behind me. I immediately pulled over and had my license ready for him as he approached my door. After a few minutes he came back and said that he followed me doing well over the speed limit but he wasnt going to fine me because he was off duty. I was dumbstruck.
As i drove away i became angry because I had absolutely no idea who this guy was and I just handed him my home address, which is full of my car and a handful of motorcycles. So I called the police. After an hour on the side of the road I was joined by a uniformed police officer who verified that the person was indeed a police office and he shouldn't have pulled me over and he was going to be reprimanded for doing so (which is probably bull****) But I was smoking hot and making a pretty valid point that this was wrong.
my point to you is maybe the person that originally pulled you over didn't have the right to and his effort to engage another officer to give you a ticket is completely bull**** and you should fight it.
08-31-2010, 10:46 PM
#7
Nordschleife Master
The fact that he needed another officer to write the ticket is of no consequence.
The question is, did he actually pace you, or did you leave him in the dust? Because if he actually kept pace with you, that would mean he was doing the same speed, and he can verify how much you were speeding. If he could not keep pace with you, he can only estimate how much faster you were going, and in that case it could have been 20kph or 50kph faster..
Furthermore, if you dispute the charge, the ticket should go to a local court, not to a London court, where the officer is based out of. I doubt he will travel to fight the ticket, additionally I doubt the 2nd officer's testimony or affidavit will be adequate to get a conviction.
I would dispute the fine amount, try to get it down to 20kph or something like that, and if you're lucky he won't show up or the paperwork will not be order.
I can see you admit you normally just pay your tickets, like I do, but every once in a while there is a ticket that isn't quite spot on. I got a $498 ticket for 40kph over. The fine for 40kph over is actually only $368. So I disputed it, because the cop made an error. On the court date, the police did not have their paperwork in order, and the charges were completely dropped. (all I wanted was a correction to the correct fine amount, but I got off scott free!!!!)
good luck!
The question is, did he actually pace you, or did you leave him in the dust? Because if he actually kept pace with you, that would mean he was doing the same speed, and he can verify how much you were speeding. If he could not keep pace with you, he can only estimate how much faster you were going, and in that case it could have been 20kph or 50kph faster..
Furthermore, if you dispute the charge, the ticket should go to a local court, not to a London court, where the officer is based out of. I doubt he will travel to fight the ticket, additionally I doubt the 2nd officer's testimony or affidavit will be adequate to get a conviction.
I would dispute the fine amount, try to get it down to 20kph or something like that, and if you're lucky he won't show up or the paperwork will not be order.
I can see you admit you normally just pay your tickets, like I do, but every once in a while there is a ticket that isn't quite spot on. I got a $498 ticket for 40kph over. The fine for 40kph over is actually only $368. So I disputed it, because the cop made an error. On the court date, the police did not have their paperwork in order, and the charges were completely dropped. (all I wanted was a correction to the correct fine amount, but I got off scott free!!!!)
good luck!
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08-31-2010, 11:12 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
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Additionally, to Rich's point. I have had many tickets based mostly on my motorcyle escapades, some for points some for just cash. I make a rule to always take the ticket to the JP, I know this will come with criticism from the forum, but the reason is that every ticket gets registered and effects your insurance history. Speeding tickets are a bit harder to argue but 9 times out of 10 they will bargain you a lower km rate on your ticket right off the bat. Sometimes, as in Rich's point, they could be in a situation where they've made mistakes and who doesn't like a break once and awhile.....
09-01-2010, 08:49 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
Fight every ticket and get a good lawyer. In this case I expect that would have to bring two officers to court, so as a minimum I would think they will bargain it down.
09-01-2010, 10:23 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
Even if you don't get a lawyer and take it to court yourself there are tons of ways to argue this just defending yourself. Questions like did he actually pace you, was the speedometer in the truck certified plus if one or both of the cops don't show up then it will be thrown out. Also ask the police station for all the officer's notes so you have access to them before court. If you go to court and both cops show up, ask to have it remanded because you are still gathering evidence for your case 
. Then maybe the next time they won't show up and then tell the judge you are ready to go and it gets thrown out.
. Then maybe the next time they won't show up and then tell the judge you are ready to go and it gets thrown out.
09-01-2010, 11:03 AM
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I think its called hearsay. The second cop did not witness anything. He heard it from the first cop, who did not have a properly calibrated speed measuring device. Sounds like this will be an easy one to beat. A good paraleagal should be sufficient. I can refer you to someone who got a lot of my biker friends out of what seemed to be impossible tickets to beat. Pm if interested.
09-01-2010, 11:36 AM
#14
Nordschleife Master
I don't even think a lawyer is needed for this ticket. Go fight it, both cops will have to show up for court and I doubt either of them will so it will be thrown out immediately.
09-01-2010, 11:47 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
Not your typical ticket but not really that strange. There are different ticket books for different municipalities so to ensure a portion of the revenue gets directed accordingly. The London guy needed a proper ticket and probably gave evidence to the issuing Officer in order to write up the charge.
Pacing is one of the more difficult one's to fight because the Officer has both measurement and positive visual identification as evidence (unlike conventional radar where cars sometimes get "confused" in groupings).
If the speedometer in the police vehicle is certified, accurate measurement is likely. If not, the Officers may have conducted a measurement test after-the-fact via one Officer clocking the other on laser. This will all come out in disclosure.
In the end, I tend to fight every ticket. You run the risk of spending some $ and possibly having the original (reduced) speed reinstated for the purpose of the trial. Don't count on the Officer(s) not showing up as court / overtime is not a bad option to normal duties sometimes.
150kph or thereabouts is a little fast for my liking on public roadways - even on the 407. Keep it safe out there and good luck!
Pacing is one of the more difficult one's to fight because the Officer has both measurement and positive visual identification as evidence (unlike conventional radar where cars sometimes get "confused" in groupings).
If the speedometer in the police vehicle is certified, accurate measurement is likely. If not, the Officers may have conducted a measurement test after-the-fact via one Officer clocking the other on laser. This will all come out in disclosure.
In the end, I tend to fight every ticket. You run the risk of spending some $ and possibly having the original (reduced) speed reinstated for the purpose of the trial. Don't count on the Officer(s) not showing up as court / overtime is not a bad option to normal duties sometimes.
150kph or thereabouts is a little fast for my liking on public roadways - even on the 407. Keep it safe out there and good luck!