RickyBobby

Same here

Al Pettee

The heel used to be kitty litter from the track to the barrier, now its paved with just a small section of stones before the barrier. I'm hoping that's to entice NASCAR to run the boot....

Manifold

Problem is that while drivers may "know" what to do, in the heat of the moment they tend to react based on instincts which can be counterproductive unless trained via simulations, exercises, or experience to do the right thing.

When I'm in the right seat, I assume students will have wrong reactions, and stand ready to take preventive actions.

Jack667

Yes - either or better both - move left (might not get all the way back to line), and more braking due to late pass/ off line. I contend that novices - with much more highway experience than track experience for these maneuvers - have a bias against passing someone and then immediately applying the brakes, especially to take a turn at a lower speed than they've been during the rest of the event (while they were on the line). IMHO, it's less about shift point and trying to get the downshift completed, vs the aversion to braking after a pass. That's just my 10+ years of coaching novices at DEs, and I *think* it applies here.

Manifold

Actually gravel, but yes, I remember that.

TXE36

I watched the video again without sound and the car does not appear to be slowing down. If you look in the mirrors there is no smoke. I believe my original assessment of the driver was too harsh. If you look the car does start to turn but then the front tires don't have enough grip and we see the result. Could quite well be that the tire squeal is all from the fronts scrubbing.

If the brakes were locked up I would expect a lot more smoke and a lot more stop.

Ironic that the camera points down to the parking brake lever. Might of helped, but this unfolded very quickly.

-Mike

Manifold

Agreed. That turn has a fast downhill braking zone leading to a turn which is well over 90 degrees - a bad place to risk coming in off-line and too hot.

RJFabCab

Unfortunate incident and surprising crumple on that E30.

Something not right here... I don't think he lost the brakes since the tires are squealing from the lock up.

Initially, I thought late pass, off line novice move with a sloppy downshift upsetting the car under hard braking as the rear wagged and the fronts became overwhelmed... but listen to his engine... he rev matches on entry but then the engine suddenly falls silent when he should be dropping a gear and engaging the transmission with higher rpms audible from the downshift.

I'm thinking he came in hot... got on the binders, attempted rev match downshift, felt the car get squirrelly... panicked and immediately went 'two feet in' while crushing the stop pedal creating the lock up and fun ride to the tires.

Jack667

Right foot is on the brake. Left foot, who knows?

Jack667

And - as someone said earlier, the skid into the wall is more about understeer vs brake lock-up

996AE

At no time did he attempt to save it.

It wasnt just one or two errors that caused this incident. Short of a mechanical failure which doesnt explain poor pass, poor line, poor braking decisions, braking and thinking the car will turn... all leads to same conclusion.

Simply blew the braking point and the down shift, upset the car and he had no abilities that kicked in to allow him to save it. He simple rode it into the wall.

LuigiVampa

I think the squealing is coming from the car starting to go sideways and the front tires understeering. I don't think the driver locked up the brakes because I believe we would have heard it earlier in the moments before he lost it. He is also on street tires which you can see in the final still shot.

Also looks like the instructor is going to grab the wheel and thinks better of it. Or maybe he is just flailing around at that point.

Odd that the instructor seems to intentionally put his feet up - not a normal reaction in my book.

NYoutftr

I am a novice (5 track days) in green group.

That straight between the toe and the heel is a safe place to pass, BUT

That driver executed the pass too late for a novice.

I waved off at least 4 signaled passes over the weekend on that straight.
I came up on the cars in front of me with more momentum off the toe than they had, but backed off the past when I could not get by them when going past the flagger.
I know my skills are limited to take that turn (heel) too hot or just getting back on the line.
I was able to pass successfully there a half a dozen times, that said after passing there I was not consistent in my speed going in the turn, a couple times I braked a little more than necessary. Still keeping my brake off/turn in at the same spot but a little slower.
My instructor gave me a garage lesson that involved a circle chart explaining the combining of braking and steering and when combined you quickly get out of the safe zone of grip and control.
This tutorial was really helpful in solidifying never turn while still braking.
I just can't remember what it was called, it is a great tool for novice drivers. I think maybe friction chart or something.

Gary R.

Could that be what you are referring to?

linzman

It is called the friction circle. Basically, your tires have so much grip, it can be used to brake/accelerate in a straight line, turn, or a combination of braking and turning (as long as the total of the 2 doesn't exceed the maximum grip). It is common practice to teach track novices to only brake in a straight line because it makes it harder to induce spin, but in the long run, it's a disservice to the student, because it's something they have to unlearn as they advance in their driving ability.