325 is a lonnnng way from 500, which is what the guy was implying. I haven't even heard the BS tuners claim they could do 500 for $15k, much less prove it.

Call Powerhaus, tell them you got 15 grand and want 500 to the wheels. Get a stopwatch and time how long it takes for them to stop laughing and report back.

 

John at Vitesse sell's a kit for 3k that dynos 417 rwhp! Not that far from 500 rwhp for only 3k!! If you think it will frag, check the archives and/or post some questions about spec's ...etc! I'm sure John would be glad to lend some insight. He is a racer as well! And thats only his stage 2 kit, i'm sure his stage 3 is close to 500 rwhp. Regards

 

Not. It's 440 and something - I can't read the small print on his website.

 

Pig 440hp is close enough, besides his kit's are dirt cheap! Hmm 440rwhp=$3500.00
i guess that leaves 11 k for a whole lot of other goodies! If not, i'm sure you could get another 60 hp pretty easily with the extra cash! Point is you can get 440 rwhp for under 4 k! Who needs Powerhaus?

 

I'm thinking seriously about replacing my stock [PCA F] 911 with a dedicated track car for next season.

Aside from the usual 911 dilemma [the lighweight early car arms race or the cup car arms race], I've been tasting some of Mark K's koolaid and looking at building up a 928 thumper. That lead to considering 951 variants - its a natural once you start thinking water pumpers. Broadfoot has a fresh 951 claiming 400 HP for sale. Anyone have any thoughts on this car, or this general type? Look like the best bang per buck I've seen so far, but I have almost zero experience of the non-911 cars - both mechanically and from a driver's perspective.

 

You have to ask yourself, which will be more durable.
928 or 951 with putting 400 to 500 at the rear wheels.
no geometry changes with the 928 are needed. all stock attachement suspension points, and you dont need to do anything fancy with the block .
$7500 stroker kit will buy you 400 at the wheels and be very dependable.
400 at the wheels in a 951 will maybe last you a season of hard racing, while the 928 will give you 4-5 years of hard racing, maybe more!
The 928 is wider, easier to get lighter, (all aluminum body panels are stock on a 928! thats hood, doors, fenders!) chassis is the stiffest in the world, and with a moderately good cage is perfect for racing!
no fender of body mods to get to 335x30x18 in the rear and 275s in front.
stock clutch is race ready!, transmissions are very strong and can support 600hp.

or, you can dump a ton of money on the 951 and it may not be faster, and certainly wont last as long.

bang for the buck is the 928 without question.

let the facts speak for themselves. 1:40.2 at laguna, 1:50.3 at sears. try and find 951s that are faster. Ask Lars Girsling of Baurer racing what he has in his 944T to run 1-2 seconds faster than me. His speedvision 944t was 4 seconds slower than i am right now, with an 18year old car, with the original engine, without any bolt having been turned on it! (just new timing belt and waterpump)


MK

 

Mark, where were you when Porsche was trying to sell the 928s? After reading this thread I am going to try and test drive a 928, heck, it sounds like *the* car I am looking for. Thanks for all the great information.

 

I wish I was into racing at the time. we may have got some sponsors and shown the world what a waste it was to discontinue the 928. with proper marketing,it could have been HUGE. after 18 years, Porsche would have made the 928 into a VIPER killer. now, it just keeps up with a Z06, but it is over 18 years older!!!

Its a great car for the street and track. Just a little odd looking compared to the latest and greatest newer cars! I personally like the looks a lot. as long as it has been lowered and has some big tires on it

MK

QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris Martin
Mark, where were you when Porsche was trying to sell the 928s? After reading this thread I am going to try and test drive a 928, heck, it sounds like *the* car I am looking for. Thanks for all the great information. [/QUOTE]

 

Thanks for sharing, Mark!

 

How does this set up look as a starting point?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2440011955

Looks like an interesting car for the price.

 

Hmmmm......,
It does look like a great value, but... I know it's just a 4.5 liter, but even so it's a long way from the easy 300 rwhp we talked about earlier (and it has headers already).

 

Mark all the points you bring up are worthy but, you are obviously a little biased which is normal....we all are.

To think you can't make 400rwhp in a 951 and be reliable might have been 5 years ago. Things change.We have people on our board literally trying to blow up the engine running very high boost level's with perfect air/fuel and timming maps...and it just hasen't happend yet. You absolutely could have 400rwhp in a 951 for cheep. It's not brain surgery.

The wieght argument is pretty tough. Considering the 928 weighs in at 3500-3600lbs stock. You would have to shave 600+lbs just to reach a street 951's wieght. You could easily shave 500lbs from the 951 and now...you are going to tell me that shaving 1000lbs off the 928 is simple. Uhh no I don't think so. The 928 is one fat piggy. Can you have 300rwhp in a 928 with header's and exhaust...yep. You also freggin need it weighing that much.

I have raced my father's s4 and my 951 for quite some time. He just likes v8's like you. He claims his own knowledge and know's quite a bit about the 928....so he feels it's superior. When in reality he doesn't really know much about the 951 and what it is capable of...and I take it this is the same case with you.

The v8 will win hands down in a hp battle. But, who the heck is looking for 600hp in a 928? How many 600hp 928's are there out there? 10-20? I mean come on. Let's be real most people don't mod there car's that much. The average 928 racer might spend a few grand on the car in the engine department and the rest of it on suspension,cage,tires,track time. Forget about the fact that the 951 only has 4 cylinder's and try and remember that it has FI. With a turbo car its easy to make a considerable jump in hp especially if you have one with a forged bottem end and very low compression which is how the 951 comes. This is why you can see 951's with 400rwhp driven daily without any problem's. Rage is currently making 480rwhp and he drives that damn car every day. He also road races it. He also drag races it. He also drifts is. He flogs the **** outta the car and has he had any problems...nope.

Your claims about a 400rwhp 951 only lasting a season are a complete guess on your part. I love the 928 and its a great car....but, to get it to match a more nimble,lighter,cheeper 951 is a hard argument.

I bought my 951 for 7.2k. It came with bilstein coil over's,poly bushings,450lb spring front,400lb rear. The motor had a freash rebuild along with the turbo. The tranny had been upgraded with a Quaffie LSD,steel syncro's in the tranny along with Turbo S gear's. The car was raced in SP classes and the cup series in Virgina.

I then installed a set of 17inch cup wheels with potenza rubber for 400bucks(used). I then spent 4k in upgrades from Lindsey Racing. I don't have time to tune the damn car or install parts so that price tag was including tax,parts,labor,tunning,ect. If you wanted to do the work yourself you could have it done for 2.8k

I am currently having a spearco seat installed 5pt harness and cage for 1k. Halon for 500.00. Fuel cut installed by Perry(my porsche mechanic). the car run's very very strong and I have a wopping 5900.00 bucks invested in it.

5900+7200=13,100.00. That aint bad.I could if I wanted to rip out the interior,a/c,heater,center console,rear seats,carpet,spare,tools ect and shave 550+lbs off the car's stock wieght of 3047lbs. Which is weighed in at Ennis Raceway with a full tank of gas. At which point it would only weigh a scant 2500lbs.

My father is now in the process of doing his own gutting...and him getting down to my car's stock weight isint as easy as you make it out to sound. More over for him to get down to 2500lbs a wieght that my car could get to with ease is a serious undertaking...and not easy!

His car stock made 278rwhp and he has been looking into a centrifical blower kit using a Vortec unit for 7500.00. I ate him for breakfast when I was stock and still do to this very day. Infact this is why he thinks a 450rwhp blower will solve all of his problems. Unfortuneately what he doesn't know if for 2k I could upgrade my entire turbo system and be putting out the same hp number and still weigh a scant 2500lbs if I wanted to.

The 928 wasent ment to be a track car from the factory. It was ment to be a GT cruiser. Now can you completely change the characteristic of the car and make it a succesful road race machine. Absolutely you can. The 951 was part of a factory race series becasue it was made to be a track car. Light nimble and great handling characteristics. Can you make a 928 corner like a 951? sure. Just takes work.

Btw your tires argument doesn't hold up too much either. I can fit 315's on the rear of my car if I want to. Spacer's and rolled fender's are you friend. I currently fit 285's in the rear without one modification what so ever.

So in closing for around 13-14k I could have a 951 that weighs 2500lbs makes 400rwhp reliably stuck to hoosier slicks race ready with a full cage,fuel cut,fire system.ect.

Could you get it done in a 928 as well....sure you could. but, don't be ignorant and think just cause the 928 has 8 cylinder's it automatically makes it the best thing since sliced bread when it comes to road racing.

I am sure once my father get's his 928 down to around 3000lbs(BTW he wieghed in a 3610 at ennis raceway) and spends another 8 grand getting his 450rwhp his car will be pretty quick. Too bad at that point he will have over 20 grand in his car and just then finally be able to keep up with me.

Then all I have to do is dial up a little boost and bye bye daddy. If you can't tell me and my father are serious racers and have had this competition going on since I was a kid racing Kart at the age of 8.

I guess all I want you guy's to realize is that while both car's are good.....they both have their strong points and not so strong points. Either which way you go I think you will have a very fine porsche race car.

Just for fun I thought I would post up 1/4 times since I don't have any time like you guy's do at Laguna or Mid ohio ect. lol.

My father turned a 14.3@98mph with a 2.2 60ft(stock trim)
I turned a 14.01@99mph with a 2.1 60ft.(stock trim)

On the way home he wanted to run from 40....big mistake I brake boosted and by the time I was doing 120mph I had a easy 5-6 car's on him(both car's in stock trim). Every since then he now looks at my car in a better light. If I was to race him today with our car's they way they are from 40mph it wouldn't even be a race. I will report back when he get's his blower on.

I think in the future with me at around 450rwhp he will have to have over 500 just to compete wth my weight advantage. Only time well tell. Oh as far as lasting 5 years 951 reliabilty ect. I can't coment on that....I have only had mine for 2 years. So far so good.

 

btw mark is that is your 928 in your avator.

I am drooling. It looks sexy as hell

 

it may be easier to find a good race prepared 951 S then it is to find any 928 without an automatic, and the one you really want for this exercise is even rarer.

 

944S2