O.K. you win!!!!

 

<<... really, find a 944 that can make 300 plus hp rear wheel and cost less than $10k before turning it into a race car.>>

While Mark's experience speaks for itself (firsthand knowledge beats conjecture any day), I must point out that if you a take a $5-$6000 mechanically sound car (951) with minor body or interior issues and add an exhaust, turbo and standalone or piggyback controller ($300, $900, and $1200 respectively - assuming doing the work yourself) and you're at 350 rwhp running sustainable boost levels. That gives me an $8500 350 rwhp car ready for suspension, wheels and safety stuff like your 928 example. I can gut it and make it 2600-2700 lbs. without fiberglass/carbon. That leaves $3500 extra (vs. a $12,000 starter S4) to buy driving lessons so I can vaguely consider getting on the same track as Mark.

 

Sounds good but how many people know how to install and tune standalone engine management?

 

Good question. I think more people are capable of doing it than you (they) think.
I have zero electical training. I have no formal automotive engineering training and I did it on my car. How hard can it be? I have three friends that have also installed SDS on their respective cars (all are different vehicles) themselves. There's excellent online support and when you pick up the phone you get the guy that designed the system.
It's really not hard. All of us have enjoyed incredible gains in performance on very different motors, some NA, some turbo. If you're building a track car I'd give very serious consideration to using SDS. No laptops necessary.

 

I think the cars are pretty close. I just like the idea of 8 cylinders vs 4 , expecially if you plan on pumping 350 rear wheel hp out of those single heads and 4 pistons!! Im sure you can find a 4k donor car, but then, you could probalby find an S4 in poor shape like I did for $6-8k. all of these cars would need the $7k race car conversion fee. (ie safety, wheels tires, exhaust, etc) However, i have not seen a 944 turbo that made over 320hp rear wheel that was out of a stock engine with no tuning.

The 928 chassis and suspension is easy to upgrade without modifying as well.

dont get me wrong, the 944 platform can be a quick and cheap way to go, but I just prefer a platform that can scale to 500 rear wheel hp with a $7500 stroker kit and a $3000 carbon fiber intake manifold. (plus $3-5k in misc im sure, but look what you would get!!) (without much labor i might add, so labor could be 10k extra too!) but heck, to end up with a car that has 550 flywheel hp and weighs 2700lbs and is durable for several full race seasons!!

Mk

 

The modded 944 might have more hp at peak, but the 928 will definitely have more down low. On a course where you can't keep the revs up, the turboless 928 will have an advantage.

 

Uhh, that's what a transmission is for. Seriously it's not hard to keep the rpms over 3800.

No doubt the V8 = plenty of reliable power, but let's not get carried away with this "scalable to 500 hp" thing. I mean, really, you don't think someone couldn't take the $15 thousand dollars Mark's talking about to reach 500 hp (rear wheel?) and apply it to the 951 and be right there or surpass that mark? I'd think that the car Mark describes would be now in GT-1. 2700lbs is probably a little portly compared to it's neighbors.

 

I havent heard of any 951s that have taken this 15k and made a car that can keep up with Andersons 550hp 928. You have to remember, that at these speeds, the 944 chassis needs some work. the 928 really doesnt. especially if you are not talking about the older 944s without the brembos, which are stock on the 928S4. keep in mind, that only a stroker kit, with no changes to anything (no ecu, no cams, no head work) will yeild around 400hp rear wheel, add the carbon fiber intake and you have 450-475 at the rear wheels. Yes Mark Anderson's car is 2550lbs empy, but weighed 2650 for speedGT . His car is pretty developed now, but a sister car to his witout the mods, is running 513 hp rear wheel with only his mods, and cams. The key point, is that if you are racng on a budget, you cant beat the fact that all this HP is out of an engine that can handle it for several racing seasons. right now, running a 1:24 at Willow springs and running a 2:18, only 2 seconds slower than Kevin Bucklers GT3RS Lemans winning car and driver, is a marked achievement. Hard to argue with this kind of success. If you want to compete with a 928 in race stroker trim, you better bring a 944GTP car!

MK

 

As was said, down low anything is not a factor in racing. if you are caught below 4k, you are making mistakes that far out weigh any HP issues!

Remember, as I always stay, it is ave HP under the useable curve that you need to compare too. for the most part, peak hp is all youneed to look at. Torque is a non issue, an only half of a factor. (using HP incorporates torque and already has all the more difficult calculations done for you )

Mark
Porsche 928

AG951 said: >>>>
The modded 944 might have more hp at peak, but the 928 will definitely have more down low. On a course where you can't keep the revs up, the turboless 928 will have an advantage.


__________________
'87 Zermatt Silver 951.
Koni Yellows.
KLA Strut Tower Brace
Paragon Front Coilovers w/ 375# Hypercoils
30mm Torsion bars
-3° Camber
3.5" Ride Height

 

No. Who's doing it and getting it to stay alive on the track?

 

Tthere is a pretty fast 944S turbo that runs in POC (sliver, and I think his name is Mike Vesper) Ive seen the dyno runs and it is in the 300 to 325hp from 4500rpm to 6000. very fast car, but the only draw back is that it was fairly expensive to build this car to that level. cheaper than 911 power, but more expensive than a equiv. 928S4.

I dont know the longevity, but it was a very nice car!
MK

 

Mark,
Thanks for your continuing insight.

<<<No. Who's doing it and getting it to stay alive on the track?>>>


As to how I'd get to 500 rwhp with trackable durability for $15k, I'm not sure I could, but I think I could get close. It goes something like this: $8K for 3.2l 8v motor, $3K for Garrett GT30 BB, $1.25K for some machining, $.75 K for some oil cooling upgrades.
At the same specific output that my motor has now (with which I run 20-30 minute DE sessions in 100+ degree heat with no cooling issues) I'd be at 448 rwhp. Granted this is totally conjecture on my part but, hey, why not?

 

448 rear wheel hp? pretty exact calculation? the very best of the 928 racers that are making 440 to 485 rear wheel hp, did it with 6.5 liter engines. they are working hard, but still very dependable. you are going to do this with less than half the engine, and be dependable?? dont think so. there are no racing 944s around with this kind of reliable power.
most I have seen is the 360 rear wheel hp racers.

There have been some speedvision GT racers with 944 turbos and good drivers,but they have not even been as fast as stock S4 928 with a set of headers! (ie Lars Gersing) By the way, he is faster now, and has a built up 944 turbo, but it aint cheap!!

MK

 

What kind of specific output would consider reliable, because 70 rwhp/liter is pretty pale performance in comparision to a host of reliable (i.e. totally stock, inexpensive) cars. I get it that twice the specific output is a lot of additional heat and stress vs. the lower output car. The stock 944 turbo S has a specific rwhp of 86 and I'd hardly call them unreliable, so where's the magical break point? 100 rwhp/liter? 120 rwhp/liter? If they can build 1.5 liter Formula One cars with 500-600 hp/liter I'd think that someone could run 140rwhp/liter reliably in a 951.
Again, thanks for your input.

 

some pretty reliable engines can be built and get 100hp per liter. (ie M3 2.5 liter stroker engines) but thats with some pretty expensive components and good engine building experience. (not just joe blow, re-ring and bearing and slap it together)

the 928 can produce 90hp per liter, and its being pushed pretty hard.
a 944 at 2.5 liter producing not 100hp per liter (ie 250hp) but 300 or 400hp, would be pushing the stock envelope quite a bit.

when you compare street cars to F1 or other race engine design, all bets are off. these are designed with all sorts of other factors considered. stroke, bore ratios, rotating mass, etc, all are very unique. we are talking about a 944 engine with maybe a rod change, some crank oiling mods, or a stroker kit on a 928. Just see how long the 400rear wheel hp 944Turbos have lasted. Im sure they will get a season, but I think the discussion was reliabilty, speed and cost.
MK