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I am looking at buying an HPDE car that has been involved in a low speed, front end collision on track. Seller says frame has been repaired by a highly regarded BMW shop and aligns straight. Here are the results he sent as proof. I have no idea how to read this. Price is right. Am I nuts to buy?
The suspension alignment chart looks normal to me but it isn't really a direct measurement of frame damage and could easily be cheated (not saying that's the case). If you are worried about the frame you should have a collision shop with frame alignment equipment (shop I worked at 15+ years ago used Car-O-Liner). The frame rack fixtures the car and uses an arm to capture the factory frame alignment points in 3D space. They can tell you to the millimeter how things compare to the factory specifications. It will cost a few hundred dollars but may be worth it to you. If the frame was repaired by a collision shop with proper equipment they should already have this info.
Yeah, I would definitely get a PPI done. I just don't want to waste time and money getting car and alignment checked if this simple printout reveals this thing is a POS.
As stated, an alignment does not tell much about frame damage. You can manipulate the alignment fairly easy to cover any issues up, hence all of the money we spend on monoball/adjustable linkages and control arms.
It needs a measurement on a frame-rack, that will tell you what, if anything, is off by how much.
The individual camber, caster and toe measurements are within the proper range.
The measurement comparisons, side-to-side on and on each axle, are within the low side of tolerance (good).
The thrust angle (parallelism between front and rear axles, what would be in the most danger of being altered by an accident) is within normal limits.
The caster numbers indicate someone did a "sweep," so that is good and the fact that they are within normal or low (good) side of variance indicates the strut housing mountings have not been moved front-to-back, relative to each other.
The openness of the seller is exemplary, considering it would be possible to see lasting damage from these measurements. Sure, you should do a PPI, but this car is not compromised based on these measurements, IMO.
It's better than most race cars...
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That alignment looks pretty normal to me. I wouldn't count on it for evaluating damage however.
Car appears to have some mods, as the front camber is more negative than stock as is the rear. These sorts of mods (flipping the strut hats in the front and replacement rear lower control arms) are very common for E36 track cars and wouldn't concern me in and of themselves.
How does it drive? It should feel nice and tight. On power off power, on brakes off brakes shouldn't cause a change in direction no result in loud clunks. Pull the front bumper and verify the front frame rails are straight. Have seller show you the work receipt from the repair.
bump steer increase or decrease toe with compression?
Originally Posted by TXE36
That alignment looks pretty normal to me.
On power off power, on brakes off brakes shouldn't cause a change in direction no result in loud clunks.
-Mike
The alignment is a STATIC measure and will not show you something is loose or moving. The test drive will tell you a lot. But a good test drive and PPI, coupled with this alignment result should give you good confidence.
The alignment spec you posted originally indicate that aspect of the car is within normal limits. A good PPI should uncover any movement or broken pieces. Have fun! They're great cars.
I took the car for a test drive en route to a PPI. Steering was loose and car seemed jittery at highway speed. And the think looked like it was reassembled from a bunch of random parts. Tires didn't even match.
On these cars toe OUT in the front should be about 1/8 inch total, toe IN in the rear 1/16 inch total. Looks like to me this car has a mix of positive and negative on the rear. I don't know the conversion of toe to degrees. My comments mean nothing relative to any potential damage, it's just an observation gained from doing a bunch of smart string alignments on E36/E46 platforms.
I took the car for a test drive en route to a PPI. Steering was loose and car seemed jittery at highway speed. And the think looked like it was reassembled from a bunch of random parts. Tires didn't even match.
Anyhow, I passed on the car. Thanks again!
These cars are getting long in the tooth. Finding one in great shape is difficult and if the seller knows the market, those cars will be priced fairly high.
The good news is if you have at least some mechanical sense, a loose or ratted out one can be brought back provided it doesn't have frame damage and the motor is in good shape. A bushing job, new springs and shocks, and brake rebuild will tighten the suspension right up.
Ratted out E36 M3s can be had for a song, and once build back up make great track cars and the mechanical familiarity will help you keep it running. Note that the economics of this don't really work if you have to pay a mechanic to wrench on it - DIY really pays off here.
Another consideration is you may not want to destroy the value of a nice one by turning it into a track car anyway. I took my street E36 M3 as far as I could go without doing this and wound up buying a track prepped one.
On these cars toe OUT in the front should be about 1/8 inch total, toe IN in the rear 1/16 inch total.
I've heard people run that but it has always sounded darty to me for a road course.
I set dead zero toe up front. That way when tire drag loads up the control arm bushings at speed, it will tend toward Slight toe out (unless spherical FCABs). 1/8" in total out back.
One thing that stood out on OP's alignment sheet is the (nearly) same camber front and rear. Usually rear set as ~70% of the front is a reasonable place to start.
I set dead zero toe up front. That way when tire drag loads up the control arm bushings at speed, it will tend toward Slight toe out (unless spherical FCABs). 1/8" in total out back.
Been doing the same thing for years. Front toe out doesn't do much and if you get too much toe out or in, you will get a lot of inner front tire wear. Setting to zero ensures the toe will be small enough to prevent this even with a lot of tolerance given to the measurement.
With the back, you want to insure it never goes toe out during suspension movement because it will get squirrely. 1/8" static in at the rear is enough to ensure this even with some slop in the measurement and it's low enough that rear tire wear is very close to even.
03-25-2016, 02:31 PM
Is this car aligned right?
