LuigiVampa

I'm always amazed at people talking about the upgrades they have on their cars and they don't have basic safety gear.

In the beginner run groups I think it would be difficult to mandate expensive safety gear as many people would not make the investment for something they are "trying". However, I think a race seat, harness and HANS should be mandated for the advanced run groups.

fatbillybob

I respect RB but....I vote "knee-jerk."

This is just like cecil the lion but no lion.

Martin S.

Driver injuries and God forbid, fatalities are the "elephant in the room" in amateur HPDE and Club Racing. Nobody really wants to discuss it. Ross reminds us that there is a problem, as much as some of us don't want to acknowledge it.

And as was stated above, the Mustang driver who was killed, didn't sign up for this, nor did his family. Sure he was doing what he loved doing, to an extent, but losing his life was not part of the deal. I know I love track driving, and for freaking certain, I am not going out their to have my car damaged or destroyed, or to be injured, or worst case lose my life. In my case, I have all the safety gear one would want...I wouldn't go on a track without it, be it HPDE, Time Trial and or Club Racing.

The only cut and dried approach I can think of is restrict cars and their drivers without full safety gear, to autocross, no continuous laps, no exceptions.

Those wanting to to HPDE, or Time Trial, you'll need full safety equipment as mandated by groups such as NASA and PCA Club Racing to include a roll cage, or at least at a minimum, a roll bar. When you race, roll cage mandatory.

Also consider, there are plenty of tracks that are just plain risky, concrete walls, tire barriers, Armco, limited run off area. Address this and lots of drivers from amateur to Pro, will sleep better at night. Their loved ones will too. The track operators shift this responsibility on to the drivers...in most cases.

Out west we have Laguna Seca, 11 turns and at least 11 opportunities to bend or break your car and to injure or kill yourself. Run off is extremely limited. Sears Point isn't much better...Armaco and lots of concrete. Buttonwillow has lots of run off, and few opportunities to hit anything, unless you catch and edge in an off track excursion and roll the car. Willow Springs will bite you if you early apex certain corners, bite you big time. California Speedway...nasty walls and very limited run off.

Some track have multiple configurations such as Buttonwillow. The track can be condensed down to minimize super high speeds. Conceivably the track can be reconfigured between run sessions with the shifting of a few cones. This can also be done at Sears Point. That's what Bondurant did when I went their in the late 80's. You get some track, prove yourself, get a little more. Master that, and get a little more.

There is a private track group out west I have heard about. When you run with them, they query the members in your run group with an immediate post session e-mail. "Anybody having problems with driver X?"

Lastly, the event organizers need to insist the tower and the flaggers need to stay very, very focused with liberal black flags for risky behavior. If you are an *******, you'll get black flagged, and that's the end of your session. Get another flag, it's the end of your day....it escalates.

So called 13/13 rules...hit someone and it's determined to be your fault, typically 13 months probation....that's not harsh enough. Hit someone, it's deemed your fault, you've got 6 months off, effectively immediately. Come back and do it again, you've got a year off, do it again, you're done forever.

All the clubs offering DE need to be on a common driver data base. If you have a 13/13 with NASA, PCA Club Racing will know...instant e-mail alerts to all Clubs.

There are a few Clubs where a driver at fault in an incident pays for the damage to fix the car that was deemed not to be at fault.

That's my input....

winders

Talking about a knee-jerk reaction....

Martin,

Your 'input", if implemented, would kill the DE industry. The amount of modifications required would prevent a huge number of people from ever even trying the sport. It is a subset of those people that make up the club racing crowd. Without them doing DE and time trial events, club racing dies too.....

Insanity.....

Mikelly

One thing we MUST do, is encourage, not DISCOURAGE instructors to tell their stories. After my off last August at SP, and associated injuries, I ended up being criticized by a specific chief instructor for my post here about my experience. "It gives us a bad name" was his exact words.

These things happen and we should all embrace them as teachable moments, because the mistakes made during one off by one student, or by his instructor (We are all humans) could save YOUR life. So, I'm all for changes in the approach to new HPDE safety, but I think it has to start with the opening up of the organizations and fostering information flow. Giving (Pick your club) a bad name was the least of my worries in the 7 months rehab I personally went through,

Mark Dreyer

I feel it should be the responsibility of each participant to determine and implement the level of safety of his/her own car. When I knew I wanted to stay in the hobby, I also determined that I wasn't comfortable with driving a street car at the limit. I took responsibility for my own safety and created a caged track only vehicle. When a driver gets to an advanced level and consciously elects to drive a street car at high speeds, this person is taking a calculated risk. My view is its kind of like smoking cigarettes. If you chose to smoke, it's your choice and you know you could get lung cancer.

Beantown Kman

I have nearly 40 years of DE experience. I believe the risk of personal injury in DE events is extremely low. We are, after all, trying to teach people how to drive at high speeds SAFELY. It's true that s__t can happen anytime and anywhere. But limiting speeds on straightaways is not feasible at some tracks and it would complicate and compromise the experience for many. Perhaps the solution is to place a greater emphasis across all events on safety, encouraging more people to install proper seats, harnesses, etc. And possibly to require harnesses and head and neck restraints in the advanced run groups.

Martin S.

Ross asked for suggestions...I gave mine. It can be looked at as a "Devil's Advocate" position, if you wish.

First of all, I realize that the number of drivers killed or injured in HPDE and TT, sans full safety equipment, is very low. Would it kill the DE "industry"? It would thin the herd to only those that were truly interested in the sport. Don't know if it would kill the industry...but speaking of being killed, if we want to minimize the probability of having drivers injured, or God forbid, something worse, this approach will do that.

Martin (BTW, pass through San Martin, if that is the city off 101, quite often, In and Out Burger there?)

Carrera51

Having spent the last 15 years in the right seat as an instructor, things have really changed. The performance out of the box as far as the cars go is staggering. My first student had a 72 911, second a 1.8 914. I think discussion is warranted on how to address a green student with zero track experience showing up with a Z06, GT3, McLaren etc which are all cars capable of ludicrous speed and the need for solo drivers to either add safety gear. I tell every student I ride with that is getting a solo sign off, that they are at a crossroads and need to either add safety systems to their car, or get one that has them. But we need to do this the correct way and not via a knee jerk reaction.

Tim Webb

Knee-jerk with a capital jerk!

HPDs have become a revenue source for tracks that in some cases would not be able to operate with it. Let's all make decisions for them how they generate income. With the restrictions mentioned in this thread (roll cages, seats, harnesses, etc.) the sport will die. HPDEs were created to increase the number of participants. Your solution will do nothing but reduce the number of participants and hurt track owners.

As a driver you have the right to attend or not attend based on the risks you are prepared to take. If you don't feel safe don't go. If your car is to fast don't use so much throttle.

At what point are we going to be able to make decisions for ourselves and not allow the Nanny State to control.


Oh I have an idea...why not have the feds mandate a top speed on all cars sold in the US. Will that make you happy.

This

sbelles

I would cease instructing for that fellow in the future and let him know that he's giving CIs a bad name.

Martin S.

When I read, "in the 7 months rehab I personally went through", further entrenches my position to never instruct again. I had several close calls, but fortunately my students never hit anything, came close to kissing a wall at Sears Point, close to a roll over once at another track...that is when I threw in the towel.

Some Clubs instruct from the side lines, and others have students following a lead car in lead and follow drills. In car camera and data review can also be helpful. An AM SOLO DL is about $750....great for data review. There are so many cheap cameras out there, Go Pro, etc. In car instruction at speed, is it necessary?

One other approach, have prospective students cut their teeth at Jim Russell, Bondurant, etc. And only when successfully completed, then come to their first HPDE or TT with their certificate in hand...then receive coach from the sidelines.

Gary R.

Are you an instructor? Because as someone that sits in that right seat I agree some new thought needs to be put into safety, especially in the beginner/instructed run groups. I've only been instructing for 6 years but in that short time I have seen an enormous escalation in car capabilities showing up at events in the hands of the same (skill level) people that drove 911 SC's and 944's a few short years ago. While I don't agree that cages and harnesses should be required for new people I do agree with RB's point on no appreciable "Education" happening at 130 MPH+ on a straightaway. I for one would be all for some changes (such as a cone chicane for beginners on high speed sections of tracks), as an instructor I could care less how fast you can get your car rolling, it's ALL about the turns.

GMP911

For me this was the logical approach - try it in Novice with just a seat belt then if the experience is what you thought it would be then step up the safety gear. The only thing I would add is to limit the top speed until you get full safety gear. For reference they have been doing this in drag racing for years - if your car is a 10 sec or less car it must have a roll cage.

Tim Webb

Gary,

Yes - 15 plus years. I am and have been including coaching in the Pirrelli World Challenge. I have been in the right seat many times, but never with someone I am uncomfortable with. I have also pulled people off the track when I felt they were a danger to me and other drivers.

Ultimately I am in charge of my actions.

What happened to personal responsibility.