GT3 Cup Car Questions
09-04-2003, 04:19 PM
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GT3 Cup Car Questions
I'm begining to accumulate information concerning these cars because sometime in this lifetime I would love to get one.
There's been acouple of good threads recently about the 996 cup cars, and there's also some info on engine, drivetrain, etc. on www.porsche.com.
What I want to find out, is how much an engine rebuild will cost. I understand that most PCA racers have the engines redone every 75-100 hours. I also heard that Porsche will not sell engine parts, but wants the owner to send them the motor so they can overhaul it and seal it. Is this true? Where do you send the engine to? What does round trip shipping cost? What is the turn around time?
TIA
There's been acouple of good threads recently about the 996 cup cars, and there's also some info on engine, drivetrain, etc. on www.porsche.com.
What I want to find out, is how much an engine rebuild will cost. I understand that most PCA racers have the engines redone every 75-100 hours. I also heard that Porsche will not sell engine parts, but wants the owner to send them the motor so they can overhaul it and seal it. Is this true? Where do you send the engine to? What does round trip shipping cost? What is the turn around time?
TIA
09-04-2003, 05:56 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
When you talk to Porsche Motorsports the correct posture to take is bent over facing away from them.
Just kidding, they're OK and sometimes a price will surprise you! I'm sure guys with GT3 Cup can comment with details about the maintenance cost of the GT3 Cup.
Just kidding, they're OK and sometimes a price will surprise you! I'm sure guys with GT3 Cup can comment with details about the maintenance cost of the GT3 Cup.
09-04-2003, 07:53 PM
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I am budgeting $20,000 for a rebuild. The motor gets sent to Porsche Motorsports in Southern California.
I am probably under budget since in addition to shipping, one needs to factor in crating, removal and installation of the motor.
Charles
I am probably under budget since in addition to shipping, one needs to factor in crating, removal and installation of the motor.
Charles
09-04-2003, 08:26 PM
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Mike,
Typically, 75 hours has been used as the benchmark for a top end overhaul. However, I know of at least 2 motors with over 85 hours on them which still yield decent leakdown tests. Additionally, I know of not a single motor failure to date in club racing that was not caused by overrevving the engine on a downshift. Even those situations are rare, as the clutch normally will implode first, thus protecting the motor. Prior to my current 2002 Cup Car, I owned a MY 2000 which I bought from a German team (Kadach) after the 2000 Supercup season. When the motor reached 75 hours, I installed a new motor and sold the old motor. Subsequently, the buyer of my old motor had it torn down to rebuild and found nothing that needed replacement except the camchest. He also had the valves and rings replaced while the motor was opened, but said that it would not have been necessary. Pistons and cylinders etc showed virtually no wear !
Regarding cost, I agree that $20,000. is probably a good estimate from Porsche Motorsport, assuming no piston and cylinder replacement and no bottom end work is necessary. Figure 6-8 hours to remove and the same to reinstall - freight to California will be dependent on your location. I hope this information helps. These cars are as good as everything you've heard !
Rick Longano
Typically, 75 hours has been used as the benchmark for a top end overhaul. However, I know of at least 2 motors with over 85 hours on them which still yield decent leakdown tests. Additionally, I know of not a single motor failure to date in club racing that was not caused by overrevving the engine on a downshift. Even those situations are rare, as the clutch normally will implode first, thus protecting the motor. Prior to my current 2002 Cup Car, I owned a MY 2000 which I bought from a German team (Kadach) after the 2000 Supercup season. When the motor reached 75 hours, I installed a new motor and sold the old motor. Subsequently, the buyer of my old motor had it torn down to rebuild and found nothing that needed replacement except the camchest. He also had the valves and rings replaced while the motor was opened, but said that it would not have been necessary. Pistons and cylinders etc showed virtually no wear !
Regarding cost, I agree that $20,000. is probably a good estimate from Porsche Motorsport, assuming no piston and cylinder replacement and no bottom end work is necessary. Figure 6-8 hours to remove and the same to reinstall - freight to California will be dependent on your location. I hope this information helps. These cars are as good as everything you've heard !
Rick Longano
09-04-2003, 10:35 PM
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OK, good info. Thank you.
I had heard $30K as an estimate for a rebuild, but I'm not sure if that was top or bottom end. Never the less, $20K plus shipping and removal and reinstall is below $25K per 75 hours. Not unreasonable for an all out factory race car every 2 or 3 years.
Rick, why did you replace the motor instead of a rebuild on the 2000? How much $ is a fresh motor from Porsche?
What is the difference between the 2000 and the 2002? (2003?).
Chris...alternatives?
I had heard $30K as an estimate for a rebuild, but I'm not sure if that was top or bottom end. Never the less, $20K plus shipping and removal and reinstall is below $25K per 75 hours. Not unreasonable for an all out factory race car every 2 or 3 years.
Rick, why did you replace the motor instead of a rebuild on the 2000? How much $ is a fresh motor from Porsche?
What is the difference between the 2000 and the 2002? (2003?).
Chris...alternatives?
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09-04-2003, 10:51 PM
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Mike,
I bought a new motor that included clutch, full exhaust system, DME, and harness for $ 31,500.00 from a supplier who needed to get rid of it. I sold mine for $ 15,000 and later sold the new DME and harness (which I did not need to replace), resulting in a net replacement cost of about $ 15,000.00. I still have the old exhaust system to sell, which would effectively lower the net cost even more, so I was very lucky. The quoted new price from Porsche for the motor is $ 62,000.00
The differences between the 2000 and 2002 is 360 HP to 380HP, hydraulic instead of mechanical lifters, and a transmission cooler (not really part of the engine). MY 2003 adds another 10 HP (to 390).
Rick
I bought a new motor that included clutch, full exhaust system, DME, and harness for $ 31,500.00 from a supplier who needed to get rid of it. I sold mine for $ 15,000 and later sold the new DME and harness (which I did not need to replace), resulting in a net replacement cost of about $ 15,000.00. I still have the old exhaust system to sell, which would effectively lower the net cost even more, so I was very lucky. The quoted new price from Porsche for the motor is $ 62,000.00
The differences between the 2000 and 2002 is 360 HP to 380HP, hydraulic instead of mechanical lifters, and a transmission cooler (not really part of the engine). MY 2003 adds another 10 HP (to 390).
Rick
09-07-2003, 12:39 PM
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The parts costs for these engines are a bit lower than you might expect. Also as Rick and others have mentioned, they don't seem to wear out as quickly as the air cooled racing engines did.
I think going 75 hours might be a little long. I think it is important to make sure that the engine gets looked at before it explodes because the costs obviously increase dramatically if it does explode. I tend to be kind of conservative.
I have seen only two major problem areas with these engines. The rod bearings look a little worn after 70 hours but like Rick says, I haven't heard of a failure. The crankshaft oiling was totally redesigned and the Ti rods and light pistons probably ensure bearing loading about equal to the air cooled engines even with the extra RPM that the water cooled engines turn.
The other problem is valve guides. The exhuast guides seem to have a fairly short life. The worn guides don't have a large effect on performance but they increase the thermal stress on the valves. Valve guides are not available thru Porsche so some ingenuity is required to repair these.
The cost of these rebuilds should be considerably less than $20000.
I think going 75 hours might be a little long. I think it is important to make sure that the engine gets looked at before it explodes because the costs obviously increase dramatically if it does explode. I tend to be kind of conservative.
I have seen only two major problem areas with these engines. The rod bearings look a little worn after 70 hours but like Rick says, I haven't heard of a failure. The crankshaft oiling was totally redesigned and the Ti rods and light pistons probably ensure bearing loading about equal to the air cooled engines even with the extra RPM that the water cooled engines turn.
The other problem is valve guides. The exhuast guides seem to have a fairly short life. The worn guides don't have a large effect on performance but they increase the thermal stress on the valves. Valve guides are not available thru Porsche so some ingenuity is required to repair these.
The cost of these rebuilds should be considerably less than $20000.
09-07-2003, 02:37 PM
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Burning Brakes
Originally posted by Chris Cervelli
Valve guides are not available thru Porsche
Valve guides are not available thru Porsche
09-07-2003, 03:37 PM
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They sell only new heads, which are surprisingly inexpensive. I don't know what the reasoning behind this is.
Of course PMNA won't sell anybody engine parts for 996 Cup engines....
Of course PMNA won't sell anybody engine parts for 996 Cup engines....
09-07-2003, 07:53 PM
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Chris is right-on on all counts!... 
There are alternatives for GT-3 Cup engine overhaul services beyond Porsche Motorsports. They are NOT the only only source for original replacement parts and engine services.
Porsche still uses the same old valve guide material thats found in the 3.2-3.6 air-cooled engines that is well known for short life. When we do the valve job on these engines, we make our own GT-3 guides from a well proven material that solves this ongoing issue once-and-for-all.
There are alternatives for GT-3 Cup engine overhaul services beyond Porsche Motorsports. They are NOT the only only source for original replacement parts and engine services.
Porsche still uses the same old valve guide material thats found in the 3.2-3.6 air-cooled engines that is well known for short life. When we do the valve job on these engines, we make our own GT-3 guides from a well proven material that solves this ongoing issue once-and-for-all.