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I'm really looking for a decent SIM setup as the winter months are too excruciating to wait with no track time. That being said I'm willing to pay for a realistic setup because I hate sims that have poor realism. I'm planning on visiting Crimson simulation soon to get an idea of what is out there. Thanks for all the posts so far it's been a great education.
Great post Peter; very informative for those looking to get started.
Another question to answer to help guide you in the right direction is asking what you want to get out of a setup. Many of the online aliens (uber fast record holders) have the cheapest/simplest equipment. For me, I don't race much online and could care less about that final tenth of a second. I like having people over and for them to be wowed by something they've never experienced before. So for me, I wanted full motion and something big and bold image wise.
When buying a rig, you don't need to conquer it all in one swoop. Keep in simple in the beginning with quality components. The sim racing community does a lot of gear swapping, so buy quality and you can always sell it and recoup a lot of your investment when its time to upgrade. I've sold a lot of my initial gear to fund my current setup and still have a few pieces left over (CSR wheel, Logitech wireless headset, Track IR).
jlanka, to me there are only two things that affect the value I get out of any sim less than $50K.
Those are a) a realistic brake pedal feel, since that is the skill I (and that I ask others to) work on most and b) graphical detail and rendering speed, which is solely down to GPU and display technology.
Since iRacing (and most other sims) are self-scaling in detail settings (they run wizards to determine the speed of YOUR hardware and set it up for the best result from the results), it'll be as good as the hardware you have. So get that part down the best you can, GeForce 980 or better or equivalent AMD GPU. I run a GTX 1080 and it's just fine in both machines.
As far as the pedals go, the first GOOD set of pedals I got were recommended to me by Dale, Jr. and Justin Wilson (RIP). They were built by a mercurial genius (but terrible businessman) Todd Cannon, and they were one of the first strain-gauge assemblies made. A HUGE step towards realism. This was about ten years ago.
Then, the next set was from the Japanese company FREX, and had actual master cylinders and miniature calipers to mimic the proper feel, but they're too bulky.
The next system I used was what Frank has, and what I STILL think is a very, very good solution, Gary Gibson (IMSA Lights racer) Perfect Pedal, a hydraulic load cell DIY'd into a Logitech G25/27 pedal assembly. Still, one of the best for the money, especially with a Bodnar USB cable to increase the resolution.
Then, I bought a Club Sport V3 set from Thomas Jackermaier, which is what I use on one system now.
The best pedals are quite a bit more expensive and not worth it for the casual user, IMO. He has a number of offerings if you want to get crazy here: http://www.h-engineering.net
For me, the jury is out on the value of motion platforms. I have used everything from the $660,000 (platform only) Cruden Hexapod (used to have two across the street from my office at VIR) to the myriads of mid-priced offerings ($18K-$40K) but have found NO joy. Will try some of Chris' stuff sometime and will probably buy a D-Box setup eventually, but for me, motion(and it's in inherent latency) is a huge distraction...
Rift, Vive and other VR stuff is not quite there yet, but a great deal more immersive than some of the other display options short of triple (or five) projectors.
I think for most, the top of the line Sim Seats system would be more than they would ever use or get full benefit from.
__________________ -Peter Krause www.peterkrause.net www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
I'm really looking for a decent SIM setup as the winter months are too excruciating to wait with no track time. That being said I'm willing to pay for a realistic setup because I hate sims that have poor realism. I'm planning on visiting Crimson simulation soon to get an idea of what is out there. Thanks for all the posts so far it's been a great education.
Jeff
If you have the ability to go to Crimson, go. Naid is incredibly knowledgeable and helpful. He has a variety of equipment - from crazy high end, to what I refer to as "mid-fi". Try it all out, several times, jump from one to the other to see what setup feels best to you. Tell him Jim from Chicago says hello!
I bought a set of Heusinkveld Engineering pedals from him (FANTASTIC!), and after being able to compare different wheel setups (OSW, Bodnar, and Fanatec) ultimately decided to upgrade from my Fanatec ClubSport V2 wheel to an OSW (aka "Open Sim Wheel") direct-drive wheel. Still waiting for it to ship....
jlanka, to me there are only two things that affect the value I get out of any sim less than $50K.
Those are a) a realistic brake pedal feel, since that is the skill I (and that I ask others to) work on most and b) graphical detail and rendering speed, which is solely down to GPU and display technology.
Since iRacing (and most other sims) are self-scaling in detail settings (they run wizards to determine the speed of YOUR hardware and set it up for the best result from the results), it'll be as good as the hardware you have. So get that part down the best you can, GeForce 980 or better or equivalent AMD GPU. I run a GTX 1080 and it's just fine in both machines.
As far as the pedals go, the first GOOD set of pedals I got were recommended to me by Dale, Jr. and Justin Wilson (RIP). They were built by a mercurial genius (but terrible businessman) Todd Cannon, and they were one of the first strain-gauge assemblies made. A HUGE step towards realism. This was about ten years ago.
Then, the next set was from the Japanese company FREX, and had actual master cylinders and miniature calipers to mimic the proper feel, but they're too bulky.
The next system I used was what Frank has, and what I STILL think is a very, very good solution, Gary Gibson (IMSA Lights racer) Perfect Pedal, a hydraulic load cell DIY'd into a Logitech G25/27 pedal assembly. Still, one of the best for the money, especially with a Bodnar USB cable to increase the resolution.
Then, I bought a Club Sport V3 set from Thomas Jackermaier, which is what I use on one system now.
The best pedals are quite a bit more expensive and not worth it for the casual user, IMO. He has a number of offerings if you want to get crazy here: http://www.h-engineering.net
For me, the jury is out on the value of motion platforms. I have used everything from the $660,000 (platform only) Cruden Hexapod (used to have two across the street from my office at VIR) to the myriads of mid-priced offerings ($18K-$40K) but have found NO joy. Will try some of Chris' stuff sometime and will probably buy a D-Box setup eventually, but for me, motion(and it's in inherent latency) is a huge distraction...
Rift, Vive and other VR stuff is not quite there yet, but a great deal more immersive than some of the other display options short of triple (or five) projectors.
I think for most, the top of the line Sim Seats system would be more than they would ever use or get full benefit from.
Peter, I have an extreme gaming laptop which I'm hoping I can use for the sim:
If you have the ability to go to Crimson, go. Naid is incredibly knowledgeable and helpful. He has a variety of equipment - from crazy high end, to what I refer to as "mid-fi". Try it all out, several times, jump from one to the other to see what setup feels best to you. Tell him Jim from Chicago says hello!
I bought a set of Heusinkveld Engineering pedals from him (FANTASTIC!), and after being able to compare different wheel setups (OSW, Bodnar, and Fanatec) ultimately decided to upgrade from my Fanatec ClubSport V2 wheel to an OSW (aka "Open Sim Wheel") direct-drive wheel. Still waiting for it to ship....
Definitely going there soon. I've seen all the cool pedal and steering hardware out there and am drooling over a lot if it. I'd like to see it in action. Like ProCoach alluded to I'm not set on any sort of motion but I really want the hardware and the visuals to be as realistic as possible (in terms of action) and don't mind spending for it. I absolutely hate when you steer in one direction and the sim waffles you back and forth in an unrealistic fashion, same thing with flight sims.
Definitely going there soon. I've seen all the cool pedal and steering hardware out there and am drooling over a lot if it. I'd like to see it in action. Like ProCoach alluded to I'm not set on any sort of motion but I really want the hardware and the visuals to be as realistic as possible (in terms of action) and don't mind spending for it. I absolutely hate when you steer in one direction and the sim waffles you back and forth in an unrealistic fashion, same thing with flight sims.
Yeah not sure if I've said it in this thread or not but I know I've said it before - I remain unsold on motion platforms.
Now I have NOT tried the million-dollar setups, but I have tried most of the "consumer" grade (and by "consumer" I mean some close to $40k... so 'affluent' consumer might be more accurate) ones... CXC, simXperience, Force Dynamics, Dbox. They *all* have a very slight delay. It's slight *enough* that you can train yourself to get used to it... but it's there. SMACK the brake pedal suddenly and there's a hesitation before you get thrown into the belts. In a real car my foot wouldn't be bottomed out on the pedal before I hit the belts, as I'd get tossed AS the brakes grabbed. IMO it's just the nature of electronics hardware today - it takes time to process the resulting G-force, time to send the signal to the motion controller, time for the motion controller to decipher how much to move the piston, then time for the piston to actually move. Only a few milliseconds for each step but they do stack up enough to where you can tell something is just a little 'off'.
Motion is "fun", in a gimmick sort of way. Have it in your basement, throw your friends and relatives in it and watch them get tossed around. It does add a little bit more of a physical dimension to controlling the car, as it's more difficult to be super precise on the controls if you're physically getting jostled around a bit. But overall I remain a non-fan of motion if you're going for an actual training tool in a simulator. Some will disagree with me (Naid will too - he likes motion). Just how I see it.
Flight simulators - it's a little different, as things happen much more slowly. Cables stretch, flaps move, take a second to "bite" the air, etc. Plus pilots are generally much smoother/gentler on the airplane than a race driver. There's enough time for the electronics to respond. But for race cars, things are much more immediate.
One thing I *do* want to experiment with is SimVibe. You attach a couple bass shaker devices to the corners of your rig, and you get thuds/vibrations.
Frank, is it the Perfect Pedal on a G27? If so, using a small syringe to remove some of the fluid is the procedure for turning it into a "GT" pedal feel from a "formula/prototype" pedal...
Basically, $1100 for a PC AND a Rift, leaving room for a Fanatec V3 pedal set and basic wheel setup. Under $2K for something that would work well, for awhile.
My old G27 setup is messed up, seq. shifter either doesn't work at all, or works and double downshifts. I know it's the pots, just don't feel like dissasembling the damn thing to clean/replace them. Wheel and pedals are fine, is there another shifter setup out there that will work with the G27 wheel/pedals or should I just buy a new setup entirely.. and if so, what is out there under $500?
01-05-2017, 02:39 PM
