PCA proposed rule changes
09-03-2003, 07:19 PM
#31
Burning Brakes
Guys, for those of you who don't know Jeff Burger he's one of the most experienced and fastest 911 drivers in PCA club racing. He's got 10 years experience in club racing with many podiums and group wins in the very tough F and D classes. He helped me out alot getting started and he's a great guy! Welcome Jeff!
Jeff didn't have to do much to his Euro Cup to make it ready for "D" except add weight, hence the reason he's being kicked out of "D" soon!
Seriously it looks like the rules committe is considering a proposal to merge *all* Euro and race prepped USA Cups into GTC-1 running at race weight (2450#). Good move!
Jeff didn't have to do much to his Euro Cup to make it ready for "D" except add weight, hence the reason he's being kicked out of "D" soon!
Seriously it looks like the rules committe is considering a proposal to merge *all* Euro and race prepped USA Cups into GTC-1 running at race weight (2450#). Good move!
09-04-2003, 01:55 AM
#32
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Originally posted by Jeff Burger
Note - these are proposed and not a change yet, we all get to voice our opinions before they are dropped or accepted.
.
1. Are you aware your 993 was forced into D class after dominating E class several years ago. If you feel the car is not competitive in the Class, then propose 993's should go back to E next year. The redesigned rear suspension on your car was reported to be as much as 2 seconds per lap faster than the earlier trailing arm style of the 964.
The comparison of cars is based on a lot of difficult to measure variables and is not an exact science and unfortunately everyones evaluation of the fairness suffers from their own limited perspective with criteria that is equally as slippery. Speed is not just based on power to weight.
How does your car fair down the straight against D class 3.3 turbos or 2.7 lightweights which both have much better power to weight ratios than the 993 or the 964 cup or RSA which are all in your class? Have you had your car on the dyno to make sure it is up to par? Have you measured the speed of multiple cars of the same type and not just one? MY 964 cup car seemed to edge out a 993 on the long straight at VIR but seemed slightly slower when compared to another one at a different track. I do not have enough data to say with confidence which car is faster yet.
FOL (fact of life) There is not a class out there where one car in the class is not a little faster down the straight then others. Now factor in the desparity in cubic dollars that have been invested in some of the motors on the track vs cars with 100k mile motors.
Just looking at lap times alone doesn't take into account the most important factor - who was driving the car. Based on your comments, if I just looked at lap times from the race you describe, your lap times should be better than the RSA's you finally passed and pulled away from which by itself would lead me to believe the 993 is the faster car. It also sounds to me like the better driver(you) did prevail. How did he get in front of you, did he get you on the start or did he out qualify you ? Wasn't it some of the most exciting racing/driving you have done when you were "stuck on his bumper"? and really wasn't it boring out there ahead on your own?
Since the driver is the biggest factor in lap times a great driver is not easily beat unless his competitor is another great driver in a faster car - . As far as PCA dictating your costs, I am not a big budget guy but I probably spent $15k in the first 5 years of PCA club racing reconfiguring my car every year to comply with changes in rules. Like any sport, part of the determination of who is going to win is who wants to win the most. I didn't have to spend this money but I just wanted to make my car as competitive as feasable for the class I wanted to run in. More recently, after confirming I could run a 964 Cup car in D stock with the appropriate authorities, I sold my F class car and went and bought one so I could run in D stock and now, if the changes go through, ( which I support) I will no longer be able to run it in D stock without some undesirable alterations.
Finally keep in mind that we all suffer from our own limited view - admittedly that includes me.
cheers
Note - these are proposed and not a change yet, we all get to voice our opinions before they are dropped or accepted.
.
1. Are you aware your 993 was forced into D class after dominating E class several years ago. If you feel the car is not competitive in the Class, then propose 993's should go back to E next year. The redesigned rear suspension on your car was reported to be as much as 2 seconds per lap faster than the earlier trailing arm style of the 964.
The comparison of cars is based on a lot of difficult to measure variables and is not an exact science and unfortunately everyones evaluation of the fairness suffers from their own limited perspective with criteria that is equally as slippery. Speed is not just based on power to weight.
How does your car fair down the straight against D class 3.3 turbos or 2.7 lightweights which both have much better power to weight ratios than the 993 or the 964 cup or RSA which are all in your class? Have you had your car on the dyno to make sure it is up to par? Have you measured the speed of multiple cars of the same type and not just one? MY 964 cup car seemed to edge out a 993 on the long straight at VIR but seemed slightly slower when compared to another one at a different track. I do not have enough data to say with confidence which car is faster yet.
FOL (fact of life) There is not a class out there where one car in the class is not a little faster down the straight then others. Now factor in the desparity in cubic dollars that have been invested in some of the motors on the track vs cars with 100k mile motors.
Just looking at lap times alone doesn't take into account the most important factor - who was driving the car. Based on your comments, if I just looked at lap times from the race you describe, your lap times should be better than the RSA's you finally passed and pulled away from which by itself would lead me to believe the 993 is the faster car. It also sounds to me like the better driver(you) did prevail. How did he get in front of you, did he get you on the start or did he out qualify you ? Wasn't it some of the most exciting racing/driving you have done when you were "stuck on his bumper"? and really wasn't it boring out there ahead on your own?
Since the driver is the biggest factor in lap times a great driver is not easily beat unless his competitor is another great driver in a faster car - . As far as PCA dictating your costs, I am not a big budget guy but I probably spent $15k in the first 5 years of PCA club racing reconfiguring my car every year to comply with changes in rules. Like any sport, part of the determination of who is going to win is who wants to win the most. I didn't have to spend this money but I just wanted to make my car as competitive as feasable for the class I wanted to run in. More recently, after confirming I could run a 964 Cup car in D stock with the appropriate authorities, I sold my F class car and went and bought one so I could run in D stock and now, if the changes go through, ( which I support) I will no longer be able to run it in D stock without some undesirable alterations.
Finally keep in mind that we all suffer from our own limited view - admittedly that includes me.
cheers
Having prepared RSA's run at D instead of C does not make any sence to me. An already competitive car as is at D to make it even better why???
And yes lap times are an indication. When you see race after race the same type of car with almost the same difference in lap times ( different drivers) doesn't that actually say something??? I checked out all the races and just look at the times RSA's on C were lapping at! Sure the same as the Cup drivers... If that is the case why can't a 993 run prepared? Another case in point why they will not let prepared 993's to run C and run at the weight of an RS? In reality an RS will have the HP advantage so where is the problem?
Weight is a problem and will always be. Since I do understand that policing the club is very hard to do, why not make rules with specific weights combined with the HP? Even further the total weight should be with the driver included, so if you have that simple method you can make the weight/hp ratio the same for each class. Wouldn't you think that this would make more sence?
In the matter of HP and engine...you mentioned correctly the disparity between an old engine and cubic dollars....Like one car had plastered on the back...CASH INJECTED... Alas...
Stock classes should be just that. Stock! No prepared, no free suspensions, no nothing. You want to run "prepared" or whatever run at a racing class not stock. Cup cars, RS, Euro RS and all the nice and expensive variants of the stock cars should be running in their classes not with stock.
Oh well...like you said each has their own limited view of the matter and these are my own. I will still have fun for the coming races till I just give up, sell and get an SRF to run. At least there i will know for sure that i am the slowest driver out there and its my own fault for been that slow...
Thanks again for your views.
09-04-2003, 09:33 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Jeff:
My car is up in E because of a brake upgrade (prior to club racing). I could have put the stock brakes back on and gone back to F. However, the ends would not justify the means since going back to F would not really affect my overall finishing position. Plus, the big brakes allowed me to get 3 years on the first set of rotors so my operating costs have been reduced.
I did note the potential weight reduction which I would not mind since my car is a portly 2787lbs.
My car is up in E because of a brake upgrade (prior to club racing). I could have put the stock brakes back on and gone back to F. However, the ends would not justify the means since going back to F would not really affect my overall finishing position. Plus, the big brakes allowed me to get 3 years on the first set of rotors so my operating costs have been reduced.
I did note the potential weight reduction which I would not mind since my car is a portly 2787lbs.
Last edited by Carrera51; 09-04-2003 at 11:32 AM.
09-04-2003, 11:22 AM
#34
Three Wheelin'
Danny,
You CAN run your car in prepared at the 993RS weight. Just run as the RS. That is basically the prepared 993, with huge brakes, better ECU, spoilers, etc. No one is going to DQ you for not having ALL the pieces.
Mitch
You CAN run your car in prepared at the 993RS weight. Just run as the RS. That is basically the prepared 993, with huge brakes, better ECU, spoilers, etc. No one is going to DQ you for not having ALL the pieces.
Mitch
09-04-2003, 01:28 PM
#36
Burning Brakes
The more I listen to you guys the more BS all the rules seem as almost no one follows them.
09-04-2003, 01:30 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Danny and all,
Please disregard my previos post.... Danny was correct. One cannot simply upgrade some apsects of their 933, drop weight and run as the RS. It made sense to me that you could run with less hp, but this is not the case. I did not know, and just used common sense; however I did e-mail a scut and was told the truth, as I do not run such a car. I do not one anyone to make this mistake, and I apologize.
Please disregard my previos post.... Danny was correct. One cannot simply upgrade some apsects of their 933, drop weight and run as the RS. It made sense to me that you could run with less hp, but this is not the case. I did not know, and just used common sense; however I did e-mail a scut and was told the truth, as I do not run such a car. I do not one anyone to make this mistake, and I apologize.
09-04-2003, 07:16 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Mitch - thanks for the welcome. I try to stay in lurk mode to keep out of trouble, but every once and a while I get carried away -
JC in NY kind of anwered the question but here is some resource information - As far as the differences between street and race there is a lot of grey area but there was an excellent article written in May 1993 Panorama by Bob Gagnon I got an email update of that article also that provided further information. there was also an article in excellence June 1990.
Euro 964 cup cars were virtually identical to US cup cars as they were prepared to race in the US. The confusion is with what was done to some of the cars to make them saleable as street cars. I believe the original intention was to only allow the street legal version in the D stock class.
A prepared RS america at 2760 will be virtually the same car as a US Street cup car - performance wise . Oh and JC in NY where do I send you the check.
Welcome to the list. Can you fill me in on some specifics on what you did to make your euro (i assume) cup car a D car and what you'll have to do to either make it still run in D or run in gtc-1 if the new rule gets pushed through?
I will be listing our F car sometime this week and looking at the 964 Cups, 993 cups and RSAs to campaign
JC in NY kind of anwered the question but here is some resource information - As far as the differences between street and race there is a lot of grey area but there was an excellent article written in May 1993 Panorama by Bob Gagnon I got an email update of that article also that provided further information. there was also an article in excellence June 1990.
Euro 964 cup cars were virtually identical to US cup cars as they were prepared to race in the US. The confusion is with what was done to some of the cars to make them saleable as street cars. I believe the original intention was to only allow the street legal version in the D stock class.
A prepared RS america at 2760 will be virtually the same car as a US Street cup car - performance wise . Oh and JC in NY where do I send you the check.
Welcome to the list. Can you fill me in on some specifics on what you did to make your euro (i assume) cup car a D car and what you'll have to do to either make it still run in D or run in gtc-1 if the new rule gets pushed through?
I will be listing our F car sometime this week and looking at the 964 Cups, 993 cups and RSAs to campaign
09-07-2003, 10:47 PM
#41
Three Wheelin'
No supercharger and hopefully I will not finish last. My biggest concern in my car is the brakes. The 996's are at such a disadvantage in C, being the heaviest car with the smallest brakes. My idea of fun in racing is racing not spending lap after lap trying to go as fast as I can without killing the brakes.
