PhilW

I need some clarification regarding when the RSA runs in D class at 2760 pounds. Is the car stock except for the weight, or are the "prepared" modification open to car in addition to the lower weight?

The proposed change from the PCA Club Racing page states.

"11. Classify stock 93-94 RS Americas along with 90-94 C2's in Class E at the C2 weight of 3031 lbs. Allow prepared RS Americas to run in Class D at 2760 lbs."

MJR911

The way i read it, the RSAs would be able to run with all prepared mods in D. As Danny points out, and I concur that it would be a great car to have for the class, they'd have a lot of mods available.

Manny Alban

Hmm, that means that my C class C2 would now run D and I wouldn't have to change a thing except the $5.00 for new class stickers. Now, that's the cheapest mod I've done yet Wow, I like this new rule. Still, the rule of 'mid pack' will probably still apply. No matter what class I run, I manage to finish mid pack..not sure if that's good or bad.

Ed Newman

ok, question... how do you shed weight in a stock class car? If my car is 100 lbs heavy for it's min weight and I can't touch the interior or change other parts out for non stock, what can I do?

Greg Fishman

Ed,
Who said you can't touch the interior? How about radio, seat belts etc. Those aren't needed.
I basically ripped all my interior out including soundproofing and reinstalled a very light carpet. Do you still have your door panels? I went to RS panels because of weight and I needed the room for the roll cage. Does your car still have a washer fluid reservior?

Have you checked into light weight front and rear bumpers?

JimB

Ed,
Here are a few random hints. Remove all carpet and sound proofing behind the front seats and replace with light weight trunk carpet. (20 lb. +) Replace mufflers with straight pipes. (about 50 lbs) Remove all stereo equipment. (10 lbs) Fill in speaker and radio holes with light plastic. Remove carpet in driver's area. Make sure your window washer resevor is empty. (up to 15 lbs) You can cross the wires to turn off the "add fluid" light. Replace battery with small Optima. (27 lbs I think). Add Jongbloed, BBS or similar light racing wheels. All light racing seats. Remove air bags. etc. etc.

I had my 996 at weight and I have a sunroof.
Jim

P.S. It might be cheaper and more productive to go buy a 993 RS.

Carrera51

RSA's possibly in E at C2 weight. That's nice....

Ed Newman

The rules clearly states that other than allowed by the rules, you can't do it. The rules also say that "Interiors, with the exception of the seats... and the panels affected by the installation of the roll bar or cage, must be as delivered by the factory". Nothing is mentioned about the battery, which means you cannot change it.

My car is already sunroof delete, no back seats due to roll cage, muffler bypass, light wheels, etc.

Dbltime

Ed,

You are right about the rule interpretation. Once you get your log book chances are you can go to many races without being teched and inspected. Two races I did this year they went over the car in detail.

If your car came from the factory with a heater and windshield washers then they must be in the car. Many cars have removed them but is is not allowed according to the rule book.

MJR911

Mark, With the rules of preparation within the stock class (not prepared) the C2 and RSA are basically the same car, just with different weight. the weight is what they're adressing.

Carrera51

MJR:
I am just lamenting the fact that there could be another batch of cars with 3.6s. I've driven my dad's 93 C2 on the track (it's got a cup suspension, and full B&B exhaust) and it is considerably faster than my 84. With a set of Michelins or Hoosiers (he's got Toyo RA1s on it), my times in his car would easily better my times in my car, even though his car is over 3K lbs. The 3.6 HP and torque more than make up for the weight of the car.

JimB

Ed, I think all of the modifications I suggested are within the rules. You have to have a washer fluid system but you don't need to have anything in it. In my 996, the rear insulation and carpet had to be removed to install the roll cage. I could have cut it up and put it back in but the lighter carpet met the requirement of making the car look "finished" without cutting up the factory carpet. I removed the heavy stereo from my car (amp, multiple speakers, etc) but was prepared to replace it with the lightest radio available on the 996 however I was told by the scrutineers that it was ok to have it out as long as you filled the holes and made it look "finished." This is probably a stretch but it's only a couple of pounds. As for the battery, I think it would be hard to find too many cars that have original Porsche batteries. I think they are more worried about it being properly mounted then what brand it is. I found that you have to find the last 100 lbs one pound at a time. Good luck and PM me if you have any questions on preparing your 996. Jim

Jeff Burger

Note - these are proposed and not a change yet, we all get to voice our opinions before they are dropped or accepted.
.
1. Are you aware your 993 was forced into D class after dominating E class several years ago. If you feel the car is not competitive in the Class, then propose 993's should go back to E next year. The redesigned rear suspension on your car was reported to be as much as 2 seconds per lap faster than the earlier trailing arm style of the 964.

The comparison of cars is based on a lot of difficult to measure variables and is not an exact science and unfortunately everyones evaluation of the fairness suffers from their own limited perspective with criteria that is equally as slippery. Speed is not just based on power to weight.

How does your car fair down the straight against D class 3.3 turbos or 2.7 lightweights which both have much better power to weight ratios than the 993 or the 964 cup or RSA which are all in your class? Have you had your car on the dyno to make sure it is up to par? Have you measured the speed of multiple cars of the same type and not just one? MY 964 cup car seemed to edge out a 993 on the long straight at VIR but seemed slightly slower when compared to another one at a different track. I do not have enough data to say with confidence which car is faster yet.

FOL (fact of life) There is not a class out there where one car in the class is not a little faster down the straight then others. Now factor in the desparity in cubic dollars that have been invested in some of the motors on the track vs cars with 100k mile motors.

Just looking at lap times alone doesn't take into account the most important factor - who was driving the car. Based on your comments, if I just looked at lap times from the race you describe, your lap times should be better than the RSA's you finally passed and pulled away from which by itself would lead me to believe the 993 is the faster car. It also sounds to me like the better driver(you) did prevail. How did he get in front of you, did he get you on the start or did he out qualify you ? Wasn't it some of the most exciting racing/driving you have done when you were "stuck on his bumper"? and really wasn't it boring out there ahead on your own?


Since the driver is the biggest factor in lap times a great driver is not easily beat unless his competitor is another great driver in a faster car - . As far as PCA dictating your costs, I am not a big budget guy but I probably spent $15k in the first 5 years of PCA club racing reconfiguring my car every year to comply with changes in rules. Like any sport, part of the determination of who is going to win is who wants to win the most. I didn't have to spend this money but I just wanted to make my car as competitive as feasable for the class I wanted to run in. More recently, after confirming I could run a 964 Cup car in D stock with the appropriate authorities, I sold my F class car and went and bought one so I could run in D stock and now, if the changes go through, ( which I support) I will no longer be able to run it in D stock without some undesirable alterations.
Finally keep in mind that we all suffer from our own limited view - admittedly that includes me.
cheers




Mitch, it is great being out of the circle so to speak to make comments like that. There is nothing a great driver can do when a car blows by him/her on the straight with such ease like the Euro RS's do on my stock 993.
Besides its a race not a DE, there are no point by's, a slower car on the twisty bits can protect their line and trust me they do... Now trying to find a way by is the challenge but it depends on the track as well. I can tell you coming out of a turn on the bumper of a car , accelerating down a short straight only to see the car in front of you who is much slower on the turn to be pulling 2 car lengths is not a very nice feeling as you cannot really make a run at him.... On my race I had this problem and only when the guy missed an up shift I was able to capitalize on that... After I passed him I was able to pull away and by the end of the race I was half a lap ahead of him. But for the first 10 laps I was stuck on his bumper, tried to make a pass he would close the door. Now unless you want to have your nose clipped you stay at bay and hopefully you can make a run...but when the car a head of you is so much faster on the straight there is not many things you can do... That is why I'm PISSED at this moronic rule. Instead of penalizing the RS with more weight and keeping the RSA as is, no mods, they want to have it run prepared!!!
And yes I do plan sometime in the future to run C as RS specs, but unless you have 20 Grand to loan me today that will not happen for at least another 2 years if not more... And the bottom line is why do I have to endure such an expense on account of PCA???? I would expect them to look at lap times and results and then make a decision to level the playing field so a great driver CAN make a difference instead of making it a one sided affair...

Jeff Burger

Mark -that is why your car runs in F Class and not E - and look even better there is a proposal that reduces your stock weight 94 pounds
Hows this for an intersting comparison -
I had a F class 3.2 carrera. so far my best time in my D class 964 Cup car is only 0.9 seconds faster at Lime Rock.1.5 seconds faster at summit however this difference increases at longer tracks - 4 seconds faster at Mosport


MJR:
I am just lamenting the fact that there could be another batch of cars with 3.6s. I've driven my dad's 93 C2 on the track (it's got a cup suspension, and full B&B exhaust) and it is considerably faster than my 84. With a set of Michelins or Hoosiers (he's got Toyo RA1s on it), my times in his car would easily better my times in my car, even though his car is over 3K lbs. The 3.6 HP and torque more than make up for the weight of the car.


__________________
Mark
84 Carrera
PCA E-Class Club

MJR911

Jeff

Welcome to the list. Can you fill me in on some specifics on what you did to make your euro (i assume) cup car a D car and what you'll have to do to either make it still run in D or run in gtc-1 if the new rule gets pushed through?

I will be listing our F car sometime this week and looking at the 964 Cups, 993 cups and RSAs to campaign.