TXE36

Did people really exit T6 that far to the left? To me, it felt better to stay on the right making T7 easier.

There was some debate about the exit of T8. Some said early apex it and shortcut through T9, which is what the green line shows. The other school of though was exit T8 on the right for a better setup to T9. I suppose it depends upon the car.

The rest of it was what I was trying to accomplish.

There was some debate about T15 either doing a wide arc or an "autocrosser's line". The diagram shows what the BMW white DE classroom called the autocrosser's line. I tried both, and preferred that line. The problem with the big arc it is still too tight to exit T15 with good speed and, with my car with no aero and street tires, fighting a bunch of understeer. Taking the autocrosser's line, trail braking like crazy and giving a good goose of the throttle just before the T15 apex helped rotate the car to get the front end pointed down the track toward T16. Data showed my fastest laps were run this way.

I've been meaning to youtube this anyway. It's the closest I got to the BMWCCA COTA "company line" presented in classroom and surprise, surprise, it's my fastest lap at COTA ever.


I think that line could work for utter newbies as well without the trail braking and by staying off the curbs. I've been told to look for more speed elsewhere as I'm not going to get much more out of the line.

-Mike

ExMB

I just traced the line as it was shown on the pdf (which is too large for me to attach).

On T6 the exit was actually no further than the middle of the track.

There were talks about the line out of T14 and it was left up to the drivers. I know that in my case it was faster taking the AX line so to speak.

There was also a discussion during the PCA CR last year whether or not to skip the apex at T17 by doing an early apex at T16. Some CR'ers preferred it that way.

Which line worked best for someone depends on their car (front - mid - rear engine), their setup, their experience level, etc.

Veloce Raptor

At the risk of starting another endless debate, I will suggest that a smart way to think about COTA turns 6 through 9 is this: In 6 it is important to get entry AND exit speeds, so allowing the car to go where it wants to go on exit is key...sometimes that means it is wide...meaning 7 is entered (and possibly apexed) relatively early...which means we are mid track or even slightly to the right of mid track on exit...which forces us to use ALL of the apex curbing at 8 in order to set the car up and stabilize the chassis sufficently for a great entry to and especially exit from 9. So if I am in a car that takes COTA's curbs decently (and most do), I will use a bunch of the late T6 curbing (at the 2nd apex), a BUNCH of the T7 apex curbing, ALL of the T8 apex curbing (even running inside the actual rumble strip to straighten it out, and as much of the T9 apex curb as possible. This is really the only way to preserve momentum in this section. I see way too many people just sort of coasting through there, waiting for T9, when in fact I will charge the hell out of 6, 7, and 8 as well, and build momentum to pass them exiting 9. Think backwards: where and how do you want to take 9, and work backwards to get the corners that set you up for 9 right.

As for the 13-14-15 stadium complex, again, think backwards from 15. I want to make 15 as small a corner as possible. It is far easier for any car, regardless of the amount of understeer, if it is a 90 degree corner rather than a 110 or 120 or 130 degree corner, right? So how do we make that happen? We have to really be perpindicular to & pointed directly at the grandstands directly ahead of us as we add steering to make 15. Think backwards from there to figure how you need to driver 14a, 14, and 13 in order to position the car for better entry into & exit from 15... Again, I see a lot of people putt-putt from 14 to 15 and/or drive a LOT of real estate in there. I will close on them all the time by the time we get to the T15 turn-in point

EDIT: again, like at many tracks, most instructors at COTA treat and teach it as if all 20 numbered corners are actually corners. They are not...and the ones that are generally are linked to others. Thinking about the whole is much more effective for lap times than 20 disparate parts...

jbossolo

Agree. Not the place to start your DE experience. Get some laps under your belt first, then do COTA. You'll enjoy it a LOT more. Just my 2 cents after being there twice.

ProCoach

Excellent post! The data supports this.

ProCoach

Going to disagree, again. Everyone is talking about how challenging the track is, and it is.

The first DE is going to be challenging, anyway. There are so many more parts of a first DE to savor and enjoy than considering the relative complexity of the track. We ALL struggled with every track that was our first. I would LOVE to say my first DE was on an F1 track!

This is not the way this forum usually thinks, but give the guy some credit until there is reason not to. So many of us "old timers" started out when DE was really rare, in some events (and at SCCA schools ten to twenty-five years ago), almost NONE of the attendees HAD BEEN ON-TRACK before. Here, we're talking about supervised, instructed and mentored guidance at a world-class facility...

Do you all have any idea how many manufacturer ride-and-drives COTA hosts? How many of these track days run by dealers and manufacturers that don't offer the oversight of a typical DE? And, AFAIK, few or none get any more than their ego bruised.

Let's keep perspective here...

TXE36

Are you actually advocating straddling the T8 right side curbing (curbing under the car and right side tires on the red "runoff")? There were people talking about this. I tried it on a cool down lap and it seemed a bit risky coming back over as the curbs picked at the rear tires. Perhaps it would be better at speed? I'd love to see a video of it.

That said, my street car did not have a problem with the curbs and I was trying in most places to just brush the orange oil pan removers with the tires. Seemed to really help in the esses and T19. But man, don't screw this up or the weekend could be over early.

Don't think I ever got to the point of doing this but one thing that was very clear reducing real estate in T15 helped. I don't think I was put-putting there, but I was fighting understeer and getting the car pointed in the right direction. T15 got better, but never felt "right" to me.

-Mike

TXE36

I think I'm just being pragmatic. From a scheduling perspective it is easier to get onto COTA as a solo qualified driver and I suspect it costs much less. The BMWCCA and PCA events appear to be the economical DE events for COTA with entry fees less than four figures. MVP costs more, but lots of track time and fewer cars. There are lots of events around TX that are much easier and more economical to attend.

If someone were to offer a newbie, instructed, event at COTA I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it. IMO, COTA is an easy track to drive safely, a difficult one to drive fast. And then there is this, some people just want to do this once and be done with it (almost incomprehensible to me). I suppose if that's the case, then it would be worth the effort to do this at COTA.

-Mike

rlm328

I do not disagree with your assessment. Any track can be driven by someone new to the sport, but if we are talking about satisfaction it is not much fun to get stuck behinfd someone slower than you are to watch them pull away in the long straights where you have your only chance to pass. The track was designed for formula one cars, so in actuality there are very few places to pass on the course. And by and large there is not much of a penalty if you get it wrong on most of the track, however if you do get it wrong like say in the esses it can get expensive in a hurry.

I enjoy the track and would recommend people going there to have fun, but I still do not recommend it as a first time experience track. You have long drag strip straight aways followed by obtuse angle turns where you you go from your highest gear to your next to lowest gear. If you get stuck behind someone in T1 the earliest you will be able to pass is T9 maybe even T10. You now have 2 passing zones back to back. Then you may end up going from T12 to T19 before you get another opportunity to pass. It can be very frustrating.

ProCoach

I hear you, and a DE is very different from a race, but for mere mortals, there are PLENTY of places to pass at COTA! I went from 14th to 7th overall in my race last October.

Charles A. Toupin

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I have a question to both coaches that posted in this thread - VR and Peter - I watched the video of the BMW driver:

I have the same remark as on Peter's lap record video: I noticed that the hands of the driver were moving on the steering wheel when entering sharp and slow turns (like turn 1 at VIR and here, turn 1 too). Is that ok, or normal, or not?

I've always been told not to move my hands off the wheel unless necessary i.e. when the turn is very sharp and your arms are crossed and that ain't enough to make the turn.

Thanks

c.

TXE36

Hey, I just got favorably compared to Peter. I'll take that on a Monday morning.

ProCoach

I've stuck with the techniques taught by my colleagues at Skip Barber School for so many years. That is to keep both hands on the wheel, spread for leverage and accuracy, as well as to relax the shoulders. Whether you move them or not is secondary in importance. See:
http://www.drivingfast.net/car-control/steering.htm

I do believe in economy of motion, i.e., keep both hands in the same position, if the steering ratio will allow it, but in an acute corner (of which T1 at VIR, T1 and T2 at Summit Point, T1 and 2 at Lime Rock, T2 at Laguna Seca and MOST corners are at COTA), once past 90 degrees, don't lose accuracy by crossing unless only for a moment.

It's a fact that, when you decide to shift your hands on the wheel, that you should move the hand (in the direction of the desired turn) to a position above normal rest and PULL DOWN, for the greatest control, because if you PUSH UP, your positioning is not as accurate and it is easy to "overshoot" the desired level of input.

If you notice the ergonomics of many top line race cars, they've consciously moved the wheel closer to the driver for better leverage and better accuracy, but often, they have to move their hands (relative positioning) on the wheel to keep their elbows out of their groin! Lol!

The more I do this, the less "one solution" is "the way." Whatever allows the driver to interact WITHOUT dedicated thought to executing the fundamental control inputs of guiding the car around the track is the best way to move forward, IMO.

Charles A. Toupin

Hahaha!!! That was your record lap, right?



c.

Charles A. Toupin

That sums it up! This last paragraph is the one we all apply I guess.

Thanks

c.