Notices
Racing & Drivers Education Forum
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

NASA penalizes all rear engines.......

 
Old 12-20-2013, 11:50 PM
  #121  
wanna911
Super User
Thread Starter
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

This better?

wanna911 is offline  
Old 12-20-2013, 11:59 PM
  #122  
Hacker-Pschorr
Super Moderator - Cracklin' Rosie
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
 
Hacker-Pschorr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Up Nort
Posts: 10,062,861
Default

LOL, that works.

Sometimes I tag along with CSI Performance and help out Geff and Joel at the NASA events.
Hacker-Pschorr is offline  
Old 12-21-2013, 02:34 PM
  #123  
North Coast Cab
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
North Coast Cab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 957
Default

Maybe they are convincing themselves not to allow the 911 to potentially be dominant in two classes (ST and GTS).
2013 National Championships -
GTS5 Porsche - No BMW's
GTS4 - BMW
GTS3 - BMW
2012 National Championships
GTS5 - None
GTS4 - BMW
GTS3 - BMW

I'd like to think with the freedom of the rules and available materials today the "potential" weight differences between the 911 and Corvette are relatively close. My experience is the Corvettes (and Mustangs too)prefer to run more power and more weight on the big tracks like Mid Ohio or Miller, and with much bigger rubber. Locally we have the Lotus Exige Cup running around 283RWHP and 26xxlbs. which is a big departure. It was very strong late in the races, but had difficulty getting out in front early. Much easier to pass on the straightaways. Also, from a tire perspective the 911 is at a big disadvantage. It is very difficult at 320+RWHP on the 911 with the rear weight distribution with anything but a non-DOT slick. The Corvettes and Lotus are all running A6's all the time. They are starting them crazy low, like 16-18lbs, and they go away at the end and don't last, but they have been able to get in front and hold-on.
Sure wish we could get all the ST and GTS guys from both coasts together.......the new Championships will make for some hefty regional competition, something that has been gaining steam the last few years anyway, but we'll never really know.....
North Coast Cab is offline  
Old 12-21-2013, 03:11 PM
  #124  
disasterman
User
 
disasterman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 1,842
Default

A little clarification about the '12 championships.

The 2012 Championship qualifying races at Mid Ohio were very closely contested with 8 cars in the 1:31's. The Lotus, Sawtelle Corvette, Forbis Corvette (eventual champ), DQ'd original first place vet, Boss Mustangs and my 944 V8. Nobody dominated, I qualified 3rd for the championship race.

The championship race was run under very unusual track conditions. 24 hours of continuous rain until 30 minutes before the race. Air temp & track temperature in the low 60's. Some cars had slicks, some on rains. The Lotus had been wrecked and could not make it to the start. So it was a wet track, drying very slowly.

I started on slicks and paid an early price. I spun my car on the 3 to 4 shift at the start on the long straight at around 100 mph and nearly hit the wall. It took me 1:36 to get out of the wet grass & mud and back on track only after the AI waive went by. A couple full course cautions and 40 minutes later I was in third (made 38 passes). Crashed out with a 2 laps to go with an AI Extreme car. I had fastest lap in ST1/2 by over 2 seconds.
disasterman is offline  
Old 12-21-2013, 04:46 PM
  #125  
wanna911
Super User
Thread Starter
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

Originally Posted by North Coast Cab View Post
2013 National Championships -
GTS5 Porsche - No BMW's
GTS4 - BMW
GTS3 - BMW
2012 National Championships
GTS5 - None
GTS4 - BMW
GTS3 - BMW

I'd like to think with the freedom of the rules and available materials today the "potential" weight differences between the 911 and Corvette are relatively close. My experience is the Corvettes (and Mustangs too)prefer to run more power and more weight on the big tracks like Mid Ohio or Miller, and with much bigger rubber. Locally we have the Lotus Exige Cup running around 283RWHP and 26xxlbs. which is a big departure. It was very strong late in the races, but had difficulty getting out in front early. Much easier to pass on the straightaways. Also, from a tire perspective the 911 is at a big disadvantage. It is very difficult at 320+RWHP on the 911 with the rear weight distribution with anything but a non-DOT slick. The Corvettes and Lotus are all running A6's all the time. They are starting them crazy low, like 16-18lbs, and they go away at the end and don't last, but they have been able to get in front and hold-on.
Sure wish we could get all the ST and GTS guys from both coasts together.......the new Championships will make for some hefty regional competition, something that has been gaining steam the last few years anyway, but we'll never really know.....
Trust me, I'm not defending them, my position is that it's a political move, plain and simple. That puts another big hole in NASA's advantage theory, as the 911's haven't even been winning the class that most of them run in.

Greg and the NASA officials need to come over here and see what the Corvette's are doing in terms of lap times and race wins. If they are going to use one 911, then they can use this one Corvette. (Not that they would actually do anything about it though)

We have 3.8 996's well set up, on Hoosier R80/100 and a tad under 3k lbs raceweight with some good whp, Andrew Davis (Grand AM), Dave Scott (Velociraptor) and other coaches and pros in them and none of them are near what the Corvette's are doing over here. To the tune of 4-5 seconds slower than the Raft Corvette (with Popp in it). There was another one that was pretty much as fast a few years ago, but the guy sold it.

In fact, the ST3/TT3 Corvette's are now almost 2 seconds faster than what those 996's were doing, and still on DOT's.

I don't think you can make a legible argument when looking at real data.

Raft Corvette - Road Atlanta 1:27.2 (old Rules ST2/TTS, A6's).
Faster PCA Records
Leh Keen - GTA - 1:21.829 997 RSR
Michael Levitas - GT1R - 1:25.7
Ryan Hulbert - GT2R 1:25.664
Michael Camley - GTA1 - 1:25.465
Leh Keen - GTA2 - 1:21.708 996 RSR
Patrick Kelly - GTC4 - 1:26.257
Fernando Pena - GTC 5 - 1:26.286

(ST3/TT3 Vette's will be in the 1:28-1:29 range by end of next year. On DOT's.)

All of the above Porsche were on slicks, mostly N1's and a combination of unrestricted RSR's down to 7 Cups, so put this same corvette on slicks and with the new ST2 rules and you can wipe almost all of those except Leh away.

This is not the only track, VIR is just as bad and Mid-Ohio much worse.

I'd love to see JR or something make it over here and prove me wrong, I'll gladly shutup, but as you can see, this is no easy mountain to climb.

Last edited by wanna911; 12-21-2013 at 05:23 PM.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 12-22-2013, 11:39 AM
  #126  
Martin S.
Rennlister Extraordinaire
Rennlist Member

 
Martin S.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Solana Beach, CA
Posts: 7,897
Default

JRGordonsenior posting on Martin S.'s computer:

I think we would all agree that Patrick Kelley and Fernando Pena are 2 very fast Porsche racers. If the their best is only 1 second quicker than the Raft Corvette you reference than my first thought is the Corvette isn't ST2 legal. On our So Cal tracks a well driven GTC4/5 is 3-4 seconds per lap quicker than I am and would never qualify for ST2. I don't know how NASA runs their events back east, but we have the Nationals portable Dynojet from Thunderhill at many events, and another in the ground at Buttonwillow where we race several time per year. NASA So Cal and Nor Cal dyno car relentlessly….
Martin S. is online now  
Old 12-22-2013, 12:21 PM
  #127  
wanna911
Super User
Thread Starter
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

I have questioned it myself because NASA SE doesn't have a dyno present for Road Atlanta events nor MidAtlantic for VIR. But Mid-Ohio being their home track and having dyno's present fairly regularly make me think the times there may be legit. They put one car in the 28's and one in the 29's at MidOhio without the fastest driver in it. The car is as well developed as the Pfadt car from the outside looking in.

The car also blew a motor the very next session (lap actually) after running the 1:27.

Of course for me, without data or video or impound present it doesn't count (as legal) and there is no data or video from the Road Atlanta time.

But still looking at other Vette times at these tracks, they are not far behind and there is data and video to back them up as well. So the potency is still there regardless, maybe just not overwhelmingly potent.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 12-22-2013, 12:35 PM
  #128  
Plavan
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
Plavan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Clovis, CA
Posts: 958
Default

*Not really Porsche related- but NASA related. I'm doing the formula's right now to see which classes I can run in. But penalizing a rear engine car is plain stupid.

I'll be bringing this knife to the gun fight next year FFR 818R. Mid Engine luckily. I hope to eventually beat the Corvettes.

I have been building since mid Oct.



Plavan is offline  
Old 12-22-2013, 01:04 PM
  #129  
docwyte
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
docwyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: denver, co
Posts: 5,630
Default

In my experience Greg will use one example and make a sweeping ruling. So one guy who's an amazing hot shoe will be used to set the bar for everyone, as opposed to being seen as being "outside the curve".
docwyte is offline  
Old 12-25-2013, 10:10 PM
  #130  
redtopz
User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: West coast
Posts: 12
Default

Originally Posted by mark kibort View Post
whats the T1 HP/weight or is it not looked at, only engine mods? what is it for ST2?
what does your LS6 make again with headers, cam and some ecu changes? (or do you have more mods)
Im asking because im sizing up if my car can run, and not run with a bunch of weight (at 3000lbs now)
thx
I ran st2 with a stock ls6 from 2010 through nationals this year. I could only get to 8.4:1 at nationals but was closer to 8.0:1 (the legal limit) at sea level. Btw my fastest Laguna time was 1:33. I just put in a new ls6 with cam after nationals. It makes about 30-40 hp more than the stock engine did so I will have to restrict it for st2.

T1 in scca lists specific mods for each car. I really hate the scca rules for non-spec classes. You have to carefully read the club rules monthly to make sure you are legal. Rules change frequently especially if your model car won the run offs. Hope to see you in T1 and/or st2 next year. I can tell by your vids that your car just doesn't have the same performance capability as my vette as it's currently setup.

Last edited by redtopz; 12-25-2013 at 10:39 PM.
redtopz is offline  
Old 12-25-2013, 10:34 PM
  #131  
redtopz
User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: West coast
Posts: 12
Default

Originally Posted by wanna911 View Post

Danny Popp and Andrew Aquilante are I would say widely considered the two fastest Corvette drivers in the country (at least on the east coast). Aquilante ran a 2:15 in a T1 Corvette at the Runoffs at Road America this year with no wing on it. Then put a wing on for GT2 and crushed that field too and cruised home to victory. I will also note that ST2 is faster than T1. In fact at many tracks, PTA was as fast as T1 and ST3 will be as fast or faster once people get a hold on the setups. ST/TT3 is almost in the 1:29's at Road Atlanta (1:30.1)

I stand by my statement. I know Bill is a tremendous driver based on times, but my point is that there are equally if not more impressive times coming from Corvette's on this coast. Anointing someone the best should take some research.

Some of the Corvette's I compete against are 2600's or less. If the Corvette guys put in the effort to get the weight down, you will see where the advantage will come in.
I agree. Popp and Aquilante are my idols! Same with Ken Smith. When I started tracking my car I saw some videos of Popp racing and dreamed of driving like that one day. There are a bunch of talented vette racers in the West. Chuck, Oli, Jim, Kyle just to name a few. But the east coast had a head start in ST2 car prep and racing and they have some awesome racers. I think the west coast vettes have lagged behind because they mostly ran T1 with very basic cars. I was one of the first to bring an aero vette into st2 and showed what they are capable of at our local tracks. And my car is still quite primitive compared to many. I have no idea how people get there vettes under 3100 lbs. I can't get my C5 below 3160 with driver and I raced at over 3200 lbs. My body panels are not so heavy that carbon fiber would make that much difference.
redtopz is offline  
Old 12-26-2013, 09:02 AM
  #132  
North Coast Cab
Addict
Rennlist Member
 
North Coast Cab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 957
Default

So there is a new ST1 corvette coming out to play in the East. Doran installed sequential box, motorsports ABS.....but I'm sure it is not competitive as all the rear engine cars.
North Coast Cab is offline  
Old 12-26-2013, 10:56 AM
  #133  
wanna911
Super User
Thread Starter
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

Originally Posted by redtopz View Post
I agree. Popp and Aquilante are my idols! Same with Ken Smith. When I started tracking my car I saw some videos of Popp racing and dreamed of driving like that one day. There are a bunch of talented vette racers in the West. Chuck, Oli, Jim, Kyle just to name a few. But the east coast had a head start in ST2 car prep and racing and they have some awesome racers. I think the west coast vettes have lagged behind because they mostly ran T1 with very basic cars. I was one of the first to bring an aero vette into st2 and showed what they are capable of at our local tracks. And my car is still quite primitive compared to many. I have no idea how people get there vettes under 3100 lbs. I can't get my C5 below 3160 with driver and I raced at over 3200 lbs. My body panels are not so heavy that carbon fiber would make that much difference.
Agree, the only group from the west (that I know of) that is on the same development curve is Pfadt. I don't even think Pheonix is overly developed to be honest, being in T1 with limited rules, Andrew is just a beast of a driver.

I don't know how light the C5 can get. The issue is partially adding dry sumps and all that but the C6Z with the aluminum chassis can get down there for sure. A good friend got his c5Z weight down to 2700's, but he's over 200 and still has to add a dry sump so he will still be heavy.
wanna911 is offline  
Old 01-21-2014, 02:30 AM
  #134  
wanna911
Super User
Thread Starter
 
wanna911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,727
Default

As if almost on cue, corvettes getting weight down to where nasa claimed only Porsche and old boxy cars could get. This guy ran 1:31 at road atlanta and 2:01 at vir (both lap records) with this car in old rules TTA 2 years ago! It now has a lot less weight and aero. This weight is only missing the window net and driver. Will be under 3600 race weight capable. He will add ballast to suit. Porsche's need not apply. I would bet 1:27 at road atlanta and 1:57 at Old vir. And he is legit (legal).

I'll report back with some times.


wanna911 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Quick Reply: NASA penalizes all rear engines.......


Contact Us - About Us - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands

We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    Get answers from community experts
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: