NASA penalizes all rear engines.......
12-14-2013, 07:52 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
As John said there is a difference between GTS and ST. I don't know how the rule making went in ST but I do know the rules change process is "similar" to PCA in GTS. The changes in GTS were minimal and as far as the 997/991 cups it was a .2 change in the pwr to weight ratio. This basically the only material change and there is no rear engine or non-production car penalty.
12-14-2013, 11:07 PM
#17
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WTF. Think of all the other rear engined cars beside Porsche that this is going to effect. 
I was thinking about moving to ST in 2014. Guess I will have to think again.
I was thinking about moving to ST in 2014. Guess I will have to think again.
12-15-2013, 12:38 AM
#18
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I've asked Greg Greenbaum on the NASA forum what was the logic behind this .2 penalty for all rear engine cars. We'll see what he says...
Don't forget that along with removing the .4 penalty for factory cup cars, they also modified their weight penalty moving mine from .3 to .1, and moved the penalty for slicks from .75 to .7. All totaled their new changes cost me nothing so I really don't care. I should have won the ST2 and GTS4 Nationals in 2010 (5 second lead when the motor blew), and I expect to compete for those titles at Sears....
Don't forget that along with removing the .4 penalty for factory cup cars, they also modified their weight penalty moving mine from .3 to .1, and moved the penalty for slicks from .75 to .7. All totaled their new changes cost me nothing so I really don't care. I should have won the ST2 and GTS4 Nationals in 2010 (5 second lead when the motor blew), and I expect to compete for those titles at Sears....
Last edited by jrgordonsenior; 12-15-2013 at 01:09 AM.
12-15-2013, 07:38 AM
#19
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JR my problem with that is that any lightweight cars benefit from the weight penalty not just you. So though your counted number looks the same, it's not exactly. So your non 911 competition can still make up some ground on you.
The pfadt Z06 ran a 1:58 in ST2 at miller. I don't know it's specs but it certainly doesn't need any help. There is one of similar nastiness on the east coast. And nasa still thinks it makes sense to penalize cup cars somehow. Our ST3 corvettes will run 1:29 or lower by years end at Road Atlanta. Two classes below a cup. The ST2 Corvette i mentioned has run 1:27.2 (actually it was the old ST2 at 8.7 adjusted). Will be faster now. The fastest a GTC cup has gone ever is 1:24.0 with Leh Keen qualifying for petite. An ST1 Corvette will run similar times.
ON A6's!
The pfadt Z06 ran a 1:58 in ST2 at miller. I don't know it's specs but it certainly doesn't need any help. There is one of similar nastiness on the east coast. And nasa still thinks it makes sense to penalize cup cars somehow. Our ST3 corvettes will run 1:29 or lower by years end at Road Atlanta. Two classes below a cup. The ST2 Corvette i mentioned has run 1:27.2 (actually it was the old ST2 at 8.7 adjusted). Will be faster now. The fastest a GTC cup has gone ever is 1:24.0 with Leh Keen qualifying for petite. An ST1 Corvette will run similar times.
ON A6's!
12-15-2013, 09:56 AM
#20
Burning Brakes
I see JR's point with him being in the same spot, but that doesn't not explain why the Cup is penalized vs. the other cars. Like I said, they want these cars in GTS.
I'd like to run my 6Cup in ST occasionally, and with the new rules and slicks it would be at 9.1:1.
I'd like to run my 6Cup in ST occasionally, and with the new rules and slicks it would be at 9.1:1.
12-15-2013, 10:19 AM
#21
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I see JR's point with him being in the same spot, but that doesn't not explain why the Cup is penalized vs. the other cars. Like I said, they want these cars in GTS.
I'd like to run my 6Cup in ST occasionally, and with the new rules and slicks it would be at 9.1:1.
I'd like to run my 6Cup in ST occasionally, and with the new rules and slicks it would be at 9.1:1.
12-15-2013, 11:15 AM
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And now they have just thrown every 911 in the same boat....... as a cup car.
And the justification is that it's less unfair than last year for the cups. But we will punish every other 911 for it.
And the justification is that it's less unfair than last year for the cups. But we will punish every other 911 for it.
12-15-2013, 11:48 AM
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What bothers me is that there's no empirical data to support the rear engine car penalty. As others have said, it's the Corvettes that have dominated in the Nationals. They were champions in 3 of the 5 National ST classes this year. As far as I know I'm the only Porsche that's run consistently in a ST class and hardly at all in 2013. It doesn't make sense....
12-15-2013, 12:26 PM
#27
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What bothers me is that there's no empirical data to support the rear engine car penalty. As others have said, it's the Corvettes that have dominated in the Nationals. They were champions in 3 of the 5 National ST classes this year. As far as I know I'm the only Porsche that's run consistently in a ST class and hardly at all in 2013. It doesn't make sense....
12-15-2013, 02:12 PM
#28
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Usually rule changes like this are for past success, but as you say, where's the data to support. Maybe NASA is getting ahead of the curve and anticipating P-car success in '14 and don't want to deal with complaints next year from their +6L 8cyl front-engined constituents.
12-15-2013, 02:13 PM
#29
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Greg Greenbaum's response on the NASA forums.....
"This is a lot of complaining about nothing. In fact, it is complaining about allowing 911's to be faster this year than last year! Again:
So, compared to 2013, the Cup cars have improved by a Mod Factor of 0.4 (to 0.45 if on slicks).
For a non-cup 911 at 2600 lbs, there is essentially no change for ST2 and ST1--rear engine Mod Factor = change in Weight Mod Factor (unless on slicks, then improved by 0.05).
The Cup drivers lobbied to get their penalty removed with some of the arguments that they have above--that it is no great magic to build a better race car than a Cup car by starting out with a street car. However, in removing the penalty, plus with the changes in the weight table and the slick points, we were not going to allow a bigger advantage/improvement over 2013 than what is listed above for 911's. As erik911 wrote, his car will IMPROVE in 2014 under these rules. The 996 Cup cars have had a nice improvement allowed for 2014. If it is not enough to bring them in, then too bad, JG (both of you). As you can see from some of the Corvette owners, they will either stay the same, or get an extra 0.1 Mod Factor. So, compared to the class dominating vehicle (for the most part), 911's will be more competitive. Did the other lighter weight cars (many shaped like a box), get a bit more improvement than the 911's? Yes. And, we will see if the fields will now be more competitive all around! Maybe you guys didn't see the 911's that were dominant in ST, but we did in SoCal. We had a 997 Cup dominate TT1/ST1 with multiple track records, and we had a plain old 996 dominate the old ST2; again with multiple track records. That vehicle will be able to slightly improve under these rules.
So, what exactly is a 0.2 Mod Factor assessment in terms of weight? It is about 50-55 lbs in ST3 and ST2, and about 75 lbs in ST1. If it proves to be too much, the nice thing about it, is that it can always be changed."
_________________
Greg Greenbaum
National TT, PT, & ST Director
"This is a lot of complaining about nothing. In fact, it is complaining about allowing 911's to be faster this year than last year! Again:
So, compared to 2013, the Cup cars have improved by a Mod Factor of 0.4 (to 0.45 if on slicks).
For a non-cup 911 at 2600 lbs, there is essentially no change for ST2 and ST1--rear engine Mod Factor = change in Weight Mod Factor (unless on slicks, then improved by 0.05).
The Cup drivers lobbied to get their penalty removed with some of the arguments that they have above--that it is no great magic to build a better race car than a Cup car by starting out with a street car. However, in removing the penalty, plus with the changes in the weight table and the slick points, we were not going to allow a bigger advantage/improvement over 2013 than what is listed above for 911's. As erik911 wrote, his car will IMPROVE in 2014 under these rules. The 996 Cup cars have had a nice improvement allowed for 2014. If it is not enough to bring them in, then too bad, JG (both of you). As you can see from some of the Corvette owners, they will either stay the same, or get an extra 0.1 Mod Factor. So, compared to the class dominating vehicle (for the most part), 911's will be more competitive. Did the other lighter weight cars (many shaped like a box), get a bit more improvement than the 911's? Yes. And, we will see if the fields will now be more competitive all around! Maybe you guys didn't see the 911's that were dominant in ST, but we did in SoCal. We had a 997 Cup dominate TT1/ST1 with multiple track records, and we had a plain old 996 dominate the old ST2; again with multiple track records. That vehicle will be able to slightly improve under these rules.
So, what exactly is a 0.2 Mod Factor assessment in terms of weight? It is about 50-55 lbs in ST3 and ST2, and about 75 lbs in ST1. If it proves to be too much, the nice thing about it, is that it can always be changed."
_________________
Greg Greenbaum
National TT, PT, & ST Director
12-15-2013, 02:14 PM
#30
JR my problem with that is that any lightweight cars benefit from the weight penalty not just you. So though your counted number looks the same, it's not exactly. So your non 911 competition can still make up some ground on you.
The pfadt Z06 ran a 1:58 in ST2 at miller. I don't know it's specs but it certainly doesn't need any help. There is one of similar nastiness on the east coast. And nasa still thinks it makes sense to penalize cup cars somehow. Our ST3 corvettes will run 1:29 or lower by years end at Road Atlanta. Two classes below a cup. The ST2 Corvette i mentioned has run 1:27.2 (actually it was the old ST2 at 8.7 adjusted). Will be faster now. The fastest a GTC cup has gone ever is 1:24.0 with Leh Keen qualifying for petite. An ST1 Corvette will run similar times.
ON A6's!
The pfadt Z06 ran a 1:58 in ST2 at miller. I don't know it's specs but it certainly doesn't need any help. There is one of similar nastiness on the east coast. And nasa still thinks it makes sense to penalize cup cars somehow. Our ST3 corvettes will run 1:29 or lower by years end at Road Atlanta. Two classes below a cup. The ST2 Corvette i mentioned has run 1:27.2 (actually it was the old ST2 at 8.7 adjusted). Will be faster now. The fastest a GTC cup has gone ever is 1:24.0 with Leh Keen qualifying for petite. An ST1 Corvette will run similar times.
ON A6's!