Shortage of instructors at our De
10-24-2013, 11:30 PM
#61
Nordschleife Master
+1 for Chin.
We generally pay half price with the various regions up here; it's expected and reasonable.
I did a few events with NER this summer, and one of the "features" that I enjoyed the most was to be allowed to run in any session, with or without a student in the car. Funny how, when there's so much track time, there's no longer any urgency, and the whole weekend becomes much more relaxed. Works for me.
We generally pay half price with the various regions up here; it's expected and reasonable.
I did a few events with NER this summer, and one of the "features" that I enjoyed the most was to be allowed to run in any session, with or without a student in the car. Funny how, when there's so much track time, there's no longer any urgency, and the whole weekend becomes much more relaxed. Works for me.
10-24-2013, 11:48 PM
#62
I instruct with Chin/Sebring events. They run a fantastic operation, and somehow are able to pay all the expenses/make a profit while still not charging the instructors. Additionally I've found that their instructor quota often fills rapidly such that if I wait too late to register, I may be paying to attend the track day.
My perspective may be slanted by the fact that I only participate at Sebring. Perhaps it is harder to attract instructors at other tracks? My point of the post is to hold Chin up as an example to other groups as to how to attract instructors.
Nothing against PCA, as I've also had positive experiences instructing with Suncoast/Goldcoast at Sebring. However it always bothers me that Chin can comp the instructors and PCA can't do the same. Compounding this issue is the fact that Chin is a private for profit entity yet still can comp instructors.
My perspective may be slanted by the fact that I only participate at Sebring. Perhaps it is harder to attract instructors at other tracks? My point of the post is to hold Chin up as an example to other groups as to how to attract instructors.
Nothing against PCA, as I've also had positive experiences instructing with Suncoast/Goldcoast at Sebring. However it always bothers me that Chin can comp the instructors and PCA can't do the same. Compounding this issue is the fact that Chin is a private for profit entity yet still can comp instructors.
10-25-2013, 07:00 AM
#63
10-25-2013, 10:53 AM
#64
Rennlist Member
10-25-2013, 11:14 AM
#65
Rennlist Member
Fees
I instruct with Chin/Sebring events. They run a fantastic operation, and somehow are able to pay all the expenses/make a profit while still not charging the instructors. Additionally I've found that their instructor quota often fills rapidly such that if I wait too late to register, I may be paying to attend the track day.
My perspective may be slanted by the fact that I only participate at Sebring. Perhaps it is harder to attract instructors at other tracks? My point of the post is to hold Chin up as an example to other groups as to how to attract instructors.
Nothing against PCA, as I've also had positive experiences instructing with Suncoast/Goldcoast at Sebring. However it always bothers me that Chin can comp the instructors and PCA can't do the same. Compounding this issue is the fact that Chin is a private for profit entity yet still can comp instructors.
My perspective may be slanted by the fact that I only participate at Sebring. Perhaps it is harder to attract instructors at other tracks? My point of the post is to hold Chin up as an example to other groups as to how to attract instructors.
Nothing against PCA, as I've also had positive experiences instructing with Suncoast/Goldcoast at Sebring. However it always bothers me that Chin can comp the instructors and PCA can't do the same. Compounding this issue is the fact that Chin is a private for profit entity yet still can comp instructors.
As for PCA and our region, FSR, we do not think the instructor fee of $100-$150 discourages instructor participation. I cannot recall one instructor who had an issue with the fee. We try to keep the Green/Blue reasonable as well since this is an event for our member and non member drivers. As for PCA nationally, I do believe the focus is always on safety first with properly trained instructors. Regions must meet the national DE standards, and some regions are more restrictive as they see fit.
I personally want to thank all instructors for their good work.
10-25-2013, 11:34 AM
#66
Race Car
Am I the only person who doesn't want more track time per event than what PCA provides? I rarely even finish a full session any more. I tend go out with more or less a specific goal or two in mind, and when I feel I've gotten what I can out of the session, I pull off. Maybe my paradigm about DE's is just different now than when they were just fun on the track. I actually like the Hooked on Driving format, where they do single day DE's.
Maybe it is because as I now instruct, I find little "down time" to assess what I need to do next, or what the car needs, or whatever. I can't fathom trying to drive and instruct 2 students.
I also prefer the added scrutiny that PCA, at least my chapter, has before soloing a guy. Had a student get solo'd by another outfit after one session a week after I had him, and his inputs were way too binary to have solo'd......guess with PSM on that stuff gets ignored (shakes head).
By the way, entry fees to a DE are only a small part of what instructors pay. If you have insufficient instructors, and are wait listing students, I'd encourage you to think about charging a higher premium for students, and maybe taking off more from instructors. But between fuel, tires, hotel, and food, DE's aren't cheap, even without the entry fees. And as far as RRR goes, if I budget $X per period of time, and I have to choose between Road Atlanta and RRR, it is going to be Road Atlanta every time. Besides, as mentioned, there are so many DE's at RRR that the instructors are naturally going to get spread around.
Maybe it is because as I now instruct, I find little "down time" to assess what I need to do next, or what the car needs, or whatever. I can't fathom trying to drive and instruct 2 students.
I also prefer the added scrutiny that PCA, at least my chapter, has before soloing a guy. Had a student get solo'd by another outfit after one session a week after I had him, and his inputs were way too binary to have solo'd......guess with PSM on that stuff gets ignored (shakes head).
By the way, entry fees to a DE are only a small part of what instructors pay. If you have insufficient instructors, and are wait listing students, I'd encourage you to think about charging a higher premium for students, and maybe taking off more from instructors. But between fuel, tires, hotel, and food, DE's aren't cheap, even without the entry fees. And as far as RRR goes, if I budget $X per period of time, and I have to choose between Road Atlanta and RRR, it is going to be Road Atlanta every time. Besides, as mentioned, there are so many DE's at RRR that the instructors are naturally going to get spread around.
10-25-2013, 12:16 PM
#67
Am I the only person who doesn't want more track time per event than what PCA provides? I rarely even finish a full session any more. I tend go out with more or less a specific goal or two in mind, and when I feel I've gotten what I can out of the session, I pull off. Maybe my paradigm about DE's is just different now than when they were just fun on the track. I actually like the Hooked on Driving format, where they do single day DE's.
Maybe it is because as I now instruct, I find little "down time" to assess what I need to do next, or what the car needs, or whatever. I can't fathom trying to drive and instruct 2 students.
I also prefer the added scrutiny that PCA, at least my chapter, has before soloing a guy. Had a student get solo'd by another outfit after one session a week after I had him, and his inputs were way too binary to have solo'd......guess with PSM on that stuff gets ignored (shakes head).
By the way, entry fees to a DE are only a small part of what instructors pay. If you have insufficient instructors, and are wait listing students, I'd encourage you to think about charging a higher premium for students, and maybe taking off more from instructors. But between fuel, tires, hotel, and food, DE's aren't cheap, even without the entry fees. And as far as RRR goes, if I budget $X per period of time, and I have to choose between Road Atlanta and RRR, it is going to be Road Atlanta every time. Besides, as mentioned, there are so many DE's at RRR that the instructors are naturally going to get spread around.
Maybe it is because as I now instruct, I find little "down time" to assess what I need to do next, or what the car needs, or whatever. I can't fathom trying to drive and instruct 2 students.
I also prefer the added scrutiny that PCA, at least my chapter, has before soloing a guy. Had a student get solo'd by another outfit after one session a week after I had him, and his inputs were way too binary to have solo'd......guess with PSM on that stuff gets ignored (shakes head).
By the way, entry fees to a DE are only a small part of what instructors pay. If you have insufficient instructors, and are wait listing students, I'd encourage you to think about charging a higher premium for students, and maybe taking off more from instructors. But between fuel, tires, hotel, and food, DE's aren't cheap, even without the entry fees. And as far as RRR goes, if I budget $X per period of time, and I have to choose between Road Atlanta and RRR, it is going to be Road Atlanta every time. Besides, as mentioned, there are so many DE's at RRR that the instructors are naturally going to get spread around.
I've been racing and DE'ing for so long now... I go out, I have fun, I come in, and I call it quits when I've had enough. If it's a chilly day I usually skip the first session altogether - no fun going out on an ice cold green track. I've skipped the last session of the day when I realize that I feel satisfied... I don't mind sacrificing a session to go home on a high note. Doesn't seem to take much for me to "scratch the itch" so to speak. Maybe a sort of "been there done that" kind of thing. ESPECIALLY if it's a track I've been to a lot. Half of my fun at DE's nowadays isn't the track time... it's hanging out and BS'ing with everybody.
I generally don't cut *sessions* short though. If I go out, I go out and focus for the session. To me they always feel short! Tho that's probably because of my history... I did a lot of motorcycle endurance racing in years past, and am part owner of a Lemons team now (where we do 2.5 to 3 hour stints depending on the event) so a 25 or 30 minute session feels like a blink usually.
As to the original topic and instructing... I have tried to instruct on days that I've signed up to drive and it's always a cluster. I found myself skipping most of MY sessions because I wanted a break or a breather from hopping out of a student's car... or if I know my student's session is immediately following mine, he's going to be jumping up and down waiting for me to get off the track and park while his session is pulling out. Pretty much all this year I either showed up to instruct, or showed up to drive. I didn't mix the two. I enjoy instructing so it's not that big of a deal to me to not drive. But I can imagine instructors who want to drive, too... I can see the incentive to sign off or ditch a student too early so you can get them out of your hair.
As for charging instructors and running short on them... I've seen events in my region where instructors are doubled up and IMO that sucks. And aside from 2 specific events focused on novice instruction, we generally don't discount instructors. Maybe there is a correlation there - our first event of the season (which we call "Novice Day") is generally NOT short on instructors though we also charge instructors $25 to drive on that day.
I like the idea of charging students more (to cover the cost of an instructor) but I know, at least in my region, we seem to walk a fine line between losing money or making a profit on an event... and raising prices is always a tough call. Generally the folks that NEED instructing are the total n00bs, and those are generally the ones we worry about scaring off with high prices. Keep it cheap enough and you might entice someone to come out and try it... and then fall in love and come back - vs. never even trying it because of cost.
There are other clubs in my area that let instructors drive free. They also require that the instructor be WITH the student ALL day and generally don't solo students until the END of the event. Meaning they get an instructor with them ALL day, then at the NEXT event, it's noted they were "solo'd", they get a quick check ride their first session, THEN are solo'd. I think this is a good way to run it... free track time attracts instructors but eliminates the temptation to sign someone off early and sets the expectation ahead of time that your primary purpose as an attending instructor is to pay attention to your student.
10-25-2013, 05:39 PM
#68
Three Wheelin'
Chin definitely run a well oiled machine at some of the best venues. Another group similar to CHIN is Rezoom, same format and venues with less racers. I now limit my PCA involvement since track time is very limited; however, I continue to participate with my region, LSR, since it does reduce my travel time and the guys that run LSR are a good bunch of people. As far as instructing, I don't have the fortitude to get into a car with a total stranger. I will for friends and people that I know.