All of the recent threads have really gotten me thinking not only about my own safety, but even more so about the person in the right hand seat riding with me. I am a regular DE'er who solos and I enjoy occasionally taking my partners in crime for a ride during sessions. I don't run at 10/10ths or anywhere close for that matter during these sessions, but obviously things can and do still happen.

I have gt3 euros, rss 930 roll bar, 5 points and have a Necksgen (HANS 'equivalent'). The car still has the 3 points in place as well and functional airbags. Not all of my riders own or have access to a HANS. I then ask: What is safer? Wearing a three point stock belt without HANS or wearing the 5 point harness without a HANS? I don't feel comfortable riding in a harness without a HANS and thus I am leaning towards three point being safer but am obviously open to thoughts and suggestions. I also feel naked and vulnerable riding in a three point without a harness and obviously without HANS. Where do you all stand?

 

Without a HANS the 3 point belts are safer.

5 point belts will hold the shoulders and body in place, but allow the head to move, giving the person an Earnhart.

 

Thanks. That was my thought and reasoning as well. An Earnhart=Bad

 

Recent fatality at local track proved this to be correct.
A pure lateral impact even made the HANS useless.

It's ironic to think that a simple 3-point belt may have avoided the tragedy.

 

I've not seen data to support this, but I agree with this opinion completely.

 

This is going to sound perhaps a bit nuts, but what about 5/6 point with the shoulders not so tight? My reasoning is that during an impact, the 3 point isn't loose like it is before the inertial reel locks up or tightens, so the 3 point holds you in the seat as well. Differences are the upper body rotates toward the center of the car and I believe the stock seat belts stretch more.

I'm in the process of putting race buckets in my dual purpose car and came to the conclusion the better street solution is the 6 point belt with a bit of slack the shoulders vs a 3 point belt with an improperly positioned inboard buckle. The car still has all the factory airbags.

On the track, the R3 feels okay with 3pts and fantastic with 6pts cinched down good an tight. These days I'd feel naked on a track without a HNR.

-Mike

 

DHI, sorry for the loss at ur local track. The lateral impact concern is actually what made me go with the Necksgen instead of HANS bc it is supposed to give some lateral protection secondary to a tether that is not only placed posteriorly but also one that is lateral. Although it certainly doesn't provide the protection of a halo seat. I just like to street drive the car occasionally and the euros are nice for that.

Mike, I was in the same boat. I felt like I knew what the answer was given the push for HANS and Earnhart but wasn't sure if there was something I was missing. Good to know that we all feel the same. It will just be strange sitting there with a five point and HANS/Necksgen and telling my passenger that they are actually safer in just the 3 point...

 

Makes me feel better about my decision go ahead with the more difficult fitting of a halo seat. Like the HNR, I didn't even notice the halo on the track after a very short time.

I had an off a while back that was rough going over a ditch getting the car on two wheels, but through a bit of talent and a lot of luck I didn't hit anything. The most amazing thing in the video is how much my head bobbled around. I didn't feel it until two days later. It is really amazing how much the body can move during violent car movements even without an impact. This was with stock E36 M3 "Vader" seats and Schroth Rallye ASM 4 points while wearing a Simpson R3.

-Mike

 

Mike

You bring up a good point. Again, this is way out there but the ASM (antisubmarine) harnesses may allow a bit of 'flex' when the harness flap 'activates/fails'. This could give the passenger the needed wiggle room...

Again, theoretical and farfetched but a nice hypothesis. I don't want to be the one to try it out tho...

 

I thought about that too, but keep in mind the purpose of ASM is not to avoid a BSF, it is to avoid submarining. I suspect BSFs occur on the street in bad enough accidents with 3 point belts, but most accidents on the street are low speed* and close to home.

-Mike

*Low speed does not imply minor. A girlfriend in high school T-boned an idiot the pulled out in front of her at 40 MPH and did an amazing amount of damage to both cars. The 3 point seat belt saved her life - she had the bruises to prove it. Her jeans had bloody red knees that turned out to be the red dye from the bottom of the dashboard of the red interior.

 

So what works best in conjunction with a standard 3-pt seat belt?

 

Agreed on ASM and the purpose, but I was thinking ASM also with a sub-strap (e.g., 5 or 6 point). Thus, you wouldn't sub and the harness would 'give' a bit. Kinda exotic. Thinking outside the box. Again, I wouldn't want to be the first to test it.

 

That's the problem, nobody really knows. Manufacturer and insurance crash testing validates 3 point belts for the street. Hans and Schroth have done sled testing with 5/6 points. In addition, Schroth has sled test of their ASM 4 points. The Hans device itself is track proven. I don't think there has been a BSF for anybody wearing a Hans due to a front impact. Before the Hans device, the numbers of BSF deaths were quite high.

Simpson has made claims about the R3 being effective with 3 point belts, with little real proof. It is pretty clear a Hans won't work with a 3 point belt - it really doesn't work with a Schroth Rallye belt either unless it is the specific Hans one.

IMO, the R3 with a 3 point belt shouldn't be any worse than without it. About all you are going to get are users opinions on this, because there really isn't any good published data.

BSFs on the street seem to be a rare occurrence (I really don't know). I do know that some drivers have been killed on the track in 5/6 points from BSFs from fairly low speed impacts (~40MPH) - so I understand the point of view of a 3 point belt being safer that 5/6 point w/o a Hans.

-Mike

 

During HANS Training, they mentioned drivers are safer using their stock 3-point belt instead of using a head & neck restraint (HNR) with no 5-6 point harness or using a 5-6 point harness with no HNR. The HANS is dependent on the shoulder belts and is of no use without the shoulder belts. A stock 3-point seatbelt is designed to help keep the torso more upright (similar to the Schroth ASM technology).

Keep in mind, you are putting a 3-5 lb helmet on your head and nothing is holding it in an accident. Wearing the helmet in conjunction with a harness & no HNR, the shoulder belts hold the shoulders/body back but the head whips in an accident.

There has also been talk about competing items like the R3 being used with a stock seatbelt. The unit works like a cantilever with the body. The webbing wraps around the torso and in an impact, the webbing puts pressure on the soft parts of the body. The HANS sits on the shoulders and does not hit any soft parts.

Lots of discussions out there. Like most racing safety related equipment, you have to look at the entire puzzle to figure out what works best for you. Sometimes stock is better if you can't do it correctly or do not want to modify your existing track car (aka daily driver). And it gets hairy when you are riding along as an instructor in someone else's car.

 

The direction I went is the track setup is exactly per the Schroth instructions plus an R3. The street setup is my own "concoction" based on what I believe is the best I can do. I did retain the airbags and the street setup is nothing more than the Schroth 6 points with the should belts a little loose.

Still, the street is a dangerous place. While driving from Houston to TWS at 6AM Sunday morning I saw 4 flat tires, two service drive incidents involving fire trucks, and one car in the wall - all in a ten mile stretch of 290. While driving to the last DE, I saw a Suburban hit *something* in the middle of 290, likely a parked car with no lights. I feel safer with the guys at the track driving 9/10s than your average Houston driver on the street.

-Mike