Order of Operations - what modifications come first for converting to a track car?
06-24-2013, 05:17 PM
#16
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This is not time to reinvent the wheel for a 928 go look at what others have done.
Safety first and then look for weaknesses.
IIRC 928 and oiling are less than optimal.
06-24-2013, 05:27 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
This is true for me, but that was in the days before the HANS device. Soon after I started using one in 2007 I didn't feel safe in a car without it. In hindsight I can't believe I drove all those years without one. If I was building a car today installing seats and harnesses so I could run a HANS would be my number one priority.
06-24-2013, 05:31 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
Step 1: Sell the 928 and get a car that is more suitable for the track. That thing will eat you alive with running and repair costs once you start beating on it.
06-24-2013, 05:48 PM
#19
Three Wheelin'
What makes the most sense depends on a lot of variables. I started in DE in 1987 at Lime Rock with a stock 944. It had 15k miles on it. The 928s come from that era and plenty of them were driven on track. I always suggest joining local PCA and tapping into the local experience base. Especially those that have been around long enough to have some knowledge of 928 cars used in this way.
Back in the day for all of the Porsche family cars, we would start with a proper ride height and alignment. Next would often be to increase the wheel rates from stock with stiffer springs and anti-roll bars along with some decent shocks like Konis or Bilsteins.
Then often the next step would be something to hold the driver in place better. We used to use race harnesses with some of the stock seats and with aftermarket harness bars. This practice may be less prevalent these days although it is not likely due to changing safety statistics.
In any case, a seat which can recline or fixed racing seat that accommodates harnesses makes a lot of sense of course, along with a properly installed harness system. We used to use harness bars or roll bars in the 80's and 90's. Some may frown on this today in cases where you plan to also use a head and neck restraint, but what makes sense for you should depend on you and not folks here on the 'net. If you are going to use a head and neck restraint choose wisely and install and use it according to the manufacturer's requirements of course.
Back in the day for all of the Porsche family cars, we would start with a proper ride height and alignment. Next would often be to increase the wheel rates from stock with stiffer springs and anti-roll bars along with some decent shocks like Konis or Bilsteins.
Then often the next step would be something to hold the driver in place better. We used to use race harnesses with some of the stock seats and with aftermarket harness bars. This practice may be less prevalent these days although it is not likely due to changing safety statistics.
In any case, a seat which can recline or fixed racing seat that accommodates harnesses makes a lot of sense of course, along with a properly installed harness system. We used to use harness bars or roll bars in the 80's and 90's. Some may frown on this today in cases where you plan to also use a head and neck restraint, but what makes sense for you should depend on you and not folks here on the 'net. If you are going to use a head and neck restraint choose wisely and install and use it according to the manufacturer's requirements of course.
06-24-2013, 05:52 PM
#20
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Thread Starter
Thanks for the feedback. The car gets a once-over by SSI here in Maryland before DEs. My wallet then gets a once over. SSI used to run 944 Spec cars so they know what's up. My brother is also a mechanic, and he just bought his first 928, so that should help in the wallet some. I do as much as I can myself but with the 928 it's always something!
06-24-2013, 05:53 PM
#21
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I think this seems extreme for only 2 HPDE events per year.
If you have 3 so far, it will take you 4 years to get to 10+ events.
IMO I would just get a set of track wheels and tires (run extreme summer tires at first) and run race brake pads. That should be all the performance you need, and not force you to make semi-permanent modifications when you really aren't going to be doing that much tracking
JMO.
(coming from a guy who has done 6 HPDE events and plans to run 8-10 events per year and runs with only extreme summers and race pads as track mods)
If you have 3 so far, it will take you 4 years to get to 10+ events.
IMO I would just get a set of track wheels and tires (run extreme summer tires at first) and run race brake pads. That should be all the performance you need, and not force you to make semi-permanent modifications when you really aren't going to be doing that much tracking
JMO.
(coming from a guy who has done 6 HPDE events and plans to run 8-10 events per year and runs with only extreme summers and race pads as track mods)
06-24-2013, 05:55 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
As for wheels and tires, as noted there are street-legal (id est, DOT compliant) "sticky" tires from various companies with various amounts of performance potential and durability. Then there are true slicks. I am not an advocate of avoiding any of the possible choices when you are just starting out. There are myriad internet "myths" about this, (just like the myth of the "momentum car").
Back in the day, one would normally address alignment and suspension prior to sticky tires. And often one would choose a sticky tire that offered a balance between performance potential and durability (like today's Toyo RA1) as a starting point. I remember when we first got Hoosier sticky tires. They were faster, but they often couldn't survive very long when driven to and from a track or AX event with a "performance alignment."
Back in the day, one would normally address alignment and suspension prior to sticky tires. And often one would choose a sticky tire that offered a balance between performance potential and durability (like today's Toyo RA1) as a starting point. I remember when we first got Hoosier sticky tires. They were faster, but they often couldn't survive very long when driven to and from a track or AX event with a "performance alignment."
06-24-2013, 05:56 PM
#23
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Thread Starter
Not really advice but some good information that I wish I had known 5 years ago.
This seems to be the progression that my friends have followed:
1. Better tires and brake pad compound (relatively cheap and easy, like dipping your toe into the water)
2. Big Brake Kit (first big purchase!!!)
3. Moar bettar Exhaust (oh it sounds great, never mind the droning)
4. Brake ducting and/or bigger rotors (BBK stopped the car faster but also boiled the brake fluid faster)
5. Car diet (out goes the comfy interior, AC and radio)
At this point most wives draw the line and refuse to ride in the car anymore. Awesome! Remove the passenger seat.
6. Engine mods (Moar power = turbo kit)
7. Roll bar
8. Race seats and harness
9. Bigger turbo (optional)
10. Tow vehicle and trailer (car is too uncomfortable to drive to the track (why is it so loud???) and it breaks down all the time)
Now that the owner has reached the point of no return, they've realized that they spent a lot of money to make a nice comfortable car uncomfortable and only usable a handful of weekends a year. On top of that, it doesn't fit into a race class!
11. Sell the car
12. Buy a fully caged race car like an e36 M3 or Miata
13. Ahhh.......relief. The simplicity of it all
14. Crap.......this towing to the track is a PITA. Sell the race car.
15. Buy a nice street car M3, 911 and NO MODS!!!!! Just a couple of DEs a year.
LOL
Personally I'm at step 13 right now. :-).
To the OP:
Are you planning or even thinking about racing in the future? Think hard before answering.
No - continue with your mods
Yes - Stop with the mods and find race group/class/car now. It'll be cheaper.
I'll give you one piece of "cheap" advice......go buy some good nomex race gloves. Not that pricey and will save you from hand fatigue.
Good luck!
This seems to be the progression that my friends have followed:
1. Better tires and brake pad compound (relatively cheap and easy, like dipping your toe into the water)
2. Big Brake Kit (first big purchase!!!)
3. Moar bettar Exhaust (oh it sounds great, never mind the droning)
4. Brake ducting and/or bigger rotors (BBK stopped the car faster but also boiled the brake fluid faster)
5. Car diet (out goes the comfy interior, AC and radio)
At this point most wives draw the line and refuse to ride in the car anymore. Awesome! Remove the passenger seat.
6. Engine mods (Moar power = turbo kit)
7. Roll bar
8. Race seats and harness
9. Bigger turbo (optional)
10. Tow vehicle and trailer (car is too uncomfortable to drive to the track (why is it so loud???) and it breaks down all the time)
Now that the owner has reached the point of no return, they've realized that they spent a lot of money to make a nice comfortable car uncomfortable and only usable a handful of weekends a year. On top of that, it doesn't fit into a race class!
11. Sell the car
12. Buy a fully caged race car like an e36 M3 or Miata
13. Ahhh.......relief. The simplicity of it all
14. Crap.......this towing to the track is a PITA. Sell the race car.
15. Buy a nice street car M3, 911 and NO MODS!!!!! Just a couple of DEs a year.
LOL
Personally I'm at step 13 right now. :-).
To the OP:
Are you planning or even thinking about racing in the future? Think hard before answering.
No - continue with your mods
Yes - Stop with the mods and find race group/class/car now. It'll be cheaper.
I'll give you one piece of "cheap" advice......go buy some good nomex race gloves. Not that pricey and will save you from hand fatigue.
Good luck!
06-24-2013, 05:57 PM
#24
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Thread Starter
Interesting, and a little counter-intuitive. Thanks!
06-24-2013, 05:59 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Sorta help braking but they will increase the speed at which you leave the course. Which means you want to be safer. And having raced cars with slicks and those with hard spec tires. The hard spec tires were way more fun. A real slick will bite you in the ***.
This is not time to reinvent the wheel for a 928 go look at what others have done.
Safety first and then look for weaknesses.
IIRC 928 and oiling are less than optimal.
This is not time to reinvent the wheel for a 928 go look at what others have done.
Safety first and then look for weaknesses.
IIRC 928 and oiling are less than optimal.
06-24-2013, 06:00 PM
#26
Three Wheelin'
The key thing though is to find local folks familiar with the cars in these applications. Often, in my experience since 1987, the easiest way to do that is through PCA.
A lot of these cars were tracked decades ago, and a lot of what made sense still makes sense now.
And of course with the 928, you will learn pretty quickly about challenges involved with a wet sump engine oiling system. Again, it may be best to work with folks familiar with these things.
A lot of these cars were tracked decades ago, and a lot of what made sense still makes sense now.
And of course with the 928, you will learn pretty quickly about challenges involved with a wet sump engine oiling system. Again, it may be best to work with folks familiar with these things.
06-24-2013, 06:03 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
What makes the most sense depends on a lot of variables. I started in DE in 1987 at Lime Rock with a stock 944. It had 15k miles on it. The 928s come from that era and plenty of them were driven on track. I always suggest joining local PCA and tapping into the local experience base. Especially those that have been around long enough to have some knowledge of 928 cars used in this way.
Back in the day for all of the Porsche family cars, we would start with a proper ride height and alignment. Next would often be to increase the wheel rates from stock with stiffer springs and anti-roll bars along with some decent shocks like Konis or Bilsteins.
Then often the next step would be something to hold the driver in place better. We used to use race harnesses with some of the stock seats and with aftermarket harness bars. This practice may be less prevalent these days although it is not likely due to changing safety statistics.
In any case, a seat which can recline or fixed racing seat that accommodates harnesses makes a lot of sense of course, along with a properly installed harness system. We used to use harness bars or roll bars in the 80's and 90's. Some may frown on this today in cases where you plan to also use a head and neck restraint, but what makes sense for you should depend on you and not folks here on the 'net. If you are going to use a head and neck restraint choose wisely and install and use it according to the manufacturer's requirements of course.
Back in the day for all of the Porsche family cars, we would start with a proper ride height and alignment. Next would often be to increase the wheel rates from stock with stiffer springs and anti-roll bars along with some decent shocks like Konis or Bilsteins.
Then often the next step would be something to hold the driver in place better. We used to use race harnesses with some of the stock seats and with aftermarket harness bars. This practice may be less prevalent these days although it is not likely due to changing safety statistics.
In any case, a seat which can recline or fixed racing seat that accommodates harnesses makes a lot of sense of course, along with a properly installed harness system. We used to use harness bars or roll bars in the 80's and 90's. Some may frown on this today in cases where you plan to also use a head and neck restraint, but what makes sense for you should depend on you and not folks here on the 'net. If you are going to use a head and neck restraint choose wisely and install and use it according to the manufacturer's requirements of course.
Sounds like a HANS device is the way to go, which I think requires a full cage?
06-24-2013, 06:06 PM
#28
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Too funny man! Yes I've considered buying an already-prepped ride, but I'm too stubborn to get out of a 928 for this purpose. Other than some reliability issues attendant to running a 25 year old car, it's been amazing at both VIR and WGI. No, I do not intend to become a real racer. And thanks for the tip on gloves. What about shoes?
What kind of shoes???? Comfortable ones.
Go try some on and make sure they fit right (those Italian made shoes tend to be really, really narrow) be sure you can heel toe in them.
For 2-3 weekends a year, I'd stop the list at: sticker tires, better brake pads, good Helmet, gloves, shoes and fire extinguisher. If you mount a roll bar you can run the racing harness with HANs.
06-24-2013, 06:06 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
I failed to mention brakes. For the most part, the first steps used to be good fresh fluid (like ATE Super Blue) and good performance or racing pads, and whatever additional ducting one could easily apply. Then if necessary, non-stock caliper and rotor systems and more extreme ducting might be applied. Lots of choices. And different tracks drive different requirements. And of course one needs to consider the vehicle's weight.
What one would recommend for braking system for a 944 turbo at 3000 pounds with 350 bhp and driving 90% or events at Laguna Seca might be different if the car weighed 2700 pounds instead or mostly drove at LRP.
What one would recommend for braking system for a 944 turbo at 3000 pounds with 350 bhp and driving 90% or events at Laguna Seca might be different if the car weighed 2700 pounds instead or mostly drove at LRP.
06-24-2013, 06:06 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
As for wheels and tires, as noted there are street-legal (id est, DOT compliant) "sticky" tires from various companies with various amounts of performance potential and durability. Then there are true slicks. I am not an advocate of avoiding any of the possible choices when you are just starting out. There are myriad internet "myths" about this, (just like the myth of the "momentum car").
Back in the day, one would normally address alignment and suspension prior to sticky tires. And often one would choose a sticky tire that offered a balance between performance potential and durability (like today's Toyo RA1) as a starting point. I remember when we first got Hoosier sticky tires. They were faster, but they often couldn't survive very long when driven to and from a track or AX event with a "performance alignment."
Back in the day, one would normally address alignment and suspension prior to sticky tires. And often one would choose a sticky tire that offered a balance between performance potential and durability (like today's Toyo RA1) as a starting point. I remember when we first got Hoosier sticky tires. They were faster, but they often couldn't survive very long when driven to and from a track or AX event with a "performance alignment."