Petition to PCA to publish overtaking and 13/13 issuance rules
06-05-2013, 02:04 PM
#31
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06-05-2013, 02:50 PM
#32
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This basically gives the lead car permission to chop the front off a car that has overlap, even 95% overlap, but is not even. If there is contact initiated by the lead car turning into the apex, the passing car is given the 13-13.
How does that first sentence apply to the lead car? You just said in the first paragraph above that the lead car has the corner if there is not 100% overlap. The first paragraph says the lead car does not have to leave racing room.
Basically, that first paragraph says if you don't have full overlap, you don't deserve any racing room and will be penalized if the lead car hits you going to the apex.
How do you reconcile that?
Scott
How does that first sentence apply to the lead car? You just said in the first paragraph above that the lead car has the corner if there is not 100% overlap. The first paragraph says the lead car does not have to leave racing room.
Basically, that first paragraph says if you don't have full overlap, you don't deserve any racing room and will be penalized if the lead car hits you going to the apex.
How do you reconcile that?
Scott
The issue as I see it is that the "lead car has the corner" philosophy puts absolutely no responsibility for awareness on the lead car and leads to these chop moves and "I didn't see him" comments with no repercussions.
In club racing the rule should be when in doubt, leave room.
06-05-2013, 04:19 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
When in doubt, there is no doubt, IMO.
06-05-2013, 04:38 PM
#34
Not disagreeing, just saying there are ways to communicate more effectively when dealing with private matters or personal matters in a private community.
06-05-2013, 04:38 PM
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Bryan
And you are correct. I am not going to comment on a specific incident other than to say that it was handled properly and that you don't have all the facts.
06-05-2013, 04:43 PM
#36
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Bryan - Totally correct that rules making by petition can result in a Giraffe or Camel designed by committee. All comments on this are appropriate.
To me this quote from your post "Everyone must leave racing room." or the lack of enforcement is the cause of more grief than anything. And it isn't enforced as nearly as well as it should IMHO.
Owning the corner can be black and white - how you handle it is not. Not suggesting that we make the stewards already difficult task even harder. I am sympathetic to their quandary and the need for clear rules. Its no fun being an unpaid cop and we should give them respect and appreciation for their efforts.
Even when you "own it". Taking possession in such a way or retaining possession (The Chop for example) in such a way that you are leaving the other driver with no rational options or in effect using the 13 rule as an offensive weapon is an issue.
Daring the other guy to NOT hit you just isn't right.
There may not have been contact in places. But there was an issue.
So I would like to see more thoughtful application of the rule already in writing for "racing room". And give some thought to another rule that is less binary and need not be draconian rather than waiting for a 13.
This actually means that there could be more penalties (or something less binary) for situations where there was no contact despite bad judgement which would surely have resulted in contact only avoided by alert reaction.
Lack of Racing Room doesn't always call for a 13. This is too binary and leaves the stewards without a tool to encourage good judgement without being extreme or unnecessarily punitive.
Because waiting until there is contact is such a very black and white rule and this leaves the stewards with a rule without nuance and sometimes too rigid to enforce reasonably or fairly.
There is room for a "racing incident" sometimes fairly applied. I applaud that.
NO - I am not talking about who is ahead or behind the other in the corner or who "owns it".. That is very clear. No need to change that. You can pinch, defend, deny offensive space for the other driver - all the tools of race craft . Thats racing.
13/13 was intended to make this a gentlemen's racing series. I think the petition is a cry that this isn't really working as well as intended.
Really there should be a stronger place for a "warning system". No specific count of warnings to reach a 13 - if ever. Something less than a 13 that can be a tool they can use to identify & better - warn drivers without immediate consequence that are too frequently involved in questionable actions, incidents or near incidents.
Because when I am in a turn, own it without question and the driver outside of me, but not "in possession" has battered doors and duct tape on a new car it gives me pause. Somehow the driver is still out there. Something is wrong.
We have elected not to run with Spec Miata rules. Totally on board for that.
To me this quote from your post "Everyone must leave racing room." or the lack of enforcement is the cause of more grief than anything. And it isn't enforced as nearly as well as it should IMHO.
Owning the corner can be black and white - how you handle it is not. Not suggesting that we make the stewards already difficult task even harder. I am sympathetic to their quandary and the need for clear rules. Its no fun being an unpaid cop and we should give them respect and appreciation for their efforts.
Even when you "own it". Taking possession in such a way or retaining possession (The Chop for example) in such a way that you are leaving the other driver with no rational options or in effect using the 13 rule as an offensive weapon is an issue.
Daring the other guy to NOT hit you just isn't right.
There may not have been contact in places. But there was an issue.
So I would like to see more thoughtful application of the rule already in writing for "racing room". And give some thought to another rule that is less binary and need not be draconian rather than waiting for a 13.
This actually means that there could be more penalties (or something less binary) for situations where there was no contact despite bad judgement which would surely have resulted in contact only avoided by alert reaction.
Lack of Racing Room doesn't always call for a 13. This is too binary and leaves the stewards without a tool to encourage good judgement without being extreme or unnecessarily punitive.
Because waiting until there is contact is such a very black and white rule and this leaves the stewards with a rule without nuance and sometimes too rigid to enforce reasonably or fairly.
There is room for a "racing incident" sometimes fairly applied. I applaud that.
NO - I am not talking about who is ahead or behind the other in the corner or who "owns it".. That is very clear. No need to change that. You can pinch, defend, deny offensive space for the other driver - all the tools of race craft . Thats racing.
13/13 was intended to make this a gentlemen's racing series. I think the petition is a cry that this isn't really working as well as intended.
Really there should be a stronger place for a "warning system". No specific count of warnings to reach a 13 - if ever. Something less than a 13 that can be a tool they can use to identify & better - warn drivers without immediate consequence that are too frequently involved in questionable actions, incidents or near incidents.
Because when I am in a turn, own it without question and the driver outside of me, but not "in possession" has battered doors and duct tape on a new car it gives me pause. Somehow the driver is still out there. Something is wrong.
We have elected not to run with Spec Miata rules. Totally on board for that.
I am wondering why you didn't just ask instead of starting a petition. Or, better yet, send in a rules proposal. A petition??
I absolutely disagree with your position that the rules are not consistently enforced. You have a right of appeal. I have seen every appeal for the last 7 years or so. A very small number of people are involved. The outcome of all of those appeals has been very consistent. They are used in conferences to help all of our Stewards stay on the same page.
I actually have thought several times we should put the rules in the book. They are so simple that it gets overlooked. The rules have been talked about for years in print. I personally wrote 4 years of columns describing many scenarios when I was Chief National Steward. But, you know that. They are gone over at every Orientation Meeting. But, you know that. I and others have included them in drivers meetings from time to time.
The car making a pass has the responsibility to complete a clean pass.
The car ahead at turn in has the corner. That means if you are not at least even, you should back out and follow the other car through the corner. If you are even then you must leave racing room.
Everyone must leave racing room. That means you cant hit people on purpose or run them off the track. It means you cant keep pressing when you have not earned a right to be there by your position at turn in. It does not mean that if you are pushing a pass you did not earn by being even or better at turn in and you get hit that you will not get a 13-13. It means that in some situations it is possible for two or more drivers to get a 13-13 sanction.
The rest is just common sense like. On a straight a blocking maneuver that results in contact is going to receive a 13-13. Driving errors like a money shift, loss of control, spinning, etc that result in damage to other cars are going to earn a 13-13.
Bryan H
I absolutely disagree with your position that the rules are not consistently enforced. You have a right of appeal. I have seen every appeal for the last 7 years or so. A very small number of people are involved. The outcome of all of those appeals has been very consistent. They are used in conferences to help all of our Stewards stay on the same page.
I actually have thought several times we should put the rules in the book. They are so simple that it gets overlooked. The rules have been talked about for years in print. I personally wrote 4 years of columns describing many scenarios when I was Chief National Steward. But, you know that. They are gone over at every Orientation Meeting. But, you know that. I and others have included them in drivers meetings from time to time.
The car making a pass has the responsibility to complete a clean pass.
The car ahead at turn in has the corner. That means if you are not at least even, you should back out and follow the other car through the corner. If you are even then you must leave racing room.
Everyone must leave racing room. That means you cant hit people on purpose or run them off the track. It means you cant keep pressing when you have not earned a right to be there by your position at turn in. It does not mean that if you are pushing a pass you did not earn by being even or better at turn in and you get hit that you will not get a 13-13. It means that in some situations it is possible for two or more drivers to get a 13-13 sanction.
The rest is just common sense like. On a straight a blocking maneuver that results in contact is going to receive a 13-13. Driving errors like a money shift, loss of control, spinning, etc that result in damage to other cars are going to earn a 13-13.
Bryan H
06-05-2013, 04:59 PM
#37
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This basically gives the lead car permission to chop the front off a car that has overlap, even 95% overlap, but is not even. If there is contact initiated by the lead car turning into the apex, the passing car is given the 13-13.
How does that first sentence apply to the lead car? You just said in the first paragraph above that the lead car has the corner if there is not 100% overlap. The first paragraph says the lead car does not have to leave racing room.
Basically, that first paragraph says if you don't have full overlap, you don't deserve any racing room and will be penalized if the lead car hits you going to the apex.
How do you reconcile that?
Scott
How does that first sentence apply to the lead car? You just said in the first paragraph above that the lead car has the corner if there is not 100% overlap. The first paragraph says the lead car does not have to leave racing room.
Basically, that first paragraph says if you don't have full overlap, you don't deserve any racing room and will be penalized if the lead car hits you going to the apex.
How do you reconcile that?
Scott
We would love to have you come racing with us some day. It is explained very well in our orientation meetings.
I hope that you can be a pretty good judge of how far you are going to get up on a car by turn in. If not .......
Read the second sentence in the racing room paragraph.
It is also very similar to other organizations that have 13-13 rules for incidents and even some who have on the spot penalties for avoidable contact. Some have different levels of overlap required but there are reasons we don't have less overlap required, namely the fact that in our opinion less invites dive bomb passing. That is if I can dive into the corner and get some overlap the poor guy who cant see nearly as well as I can must get out of my way even though I am in his rear quarter panel while he fills my windshield.
If you don't think this is becoming the norm check out the stop and wait penalties being given to pro drivers for avoidable contact in this exact situation.
Bottom line is this works and most of our drivers want a vigorously enforced 13-13 rule. With that we had only seven 13-13's at COTA and 5 at Watkins Glenn. Seems as though most drivers get it. You really should try it.
Bryan
06-05-2013, 05:08 PM
#38
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I am wondering why you didn't just ask instead of starting a petition. Or, better yet, send in a rules proposal. A petition??
I absolutely disagree with your position that the rules are not consistently enforced. You have a right of appeal. I have seen every appeal for the last 7 years or so. A very small number of people are involved. The outcome of all of those appeals has been very consistent. They are used in conferences to help all of our Stewards stay on the same page.
I actually have thought several times we should put the rules in the book. They are so simple that it gets overlooked. The rules have been talked about for years in print. I personally wrote 4 years of columns describing many scenarios when I was Chief National Steward. But, you know that. They are gone over at every Orientation Meeting. But, you know that. I and others have included them in drivers meetings from time to time.
The car making a pass has the responsibility to complete a clean pass.
The car ahead at turn in has the corner. That means if you are not at least even, you should back out and follow the other car through the corner. If you are even then you must leave racing room.
Everyone must leave racing room. That means you cant hit people on purpose or run them off the track. It means you cant keep pressing when you have not earned a right to be there by your position at turn in. It does not mean that if you are pushing a pass you did not earn by being even or better at turn in and you get hit that you will not get a 13-13. It means that in some situations it is possible for two or more drivers to get a 13-13 sanction.
The rest is just common sense like. On a straight a blocking maneuver that results in contact is going to receive a 13-13. Driving errors like a money shift, loss of control, spinning, etc that result in damage to other cars are going to earn a 13-13.
Bryan H
I absolutely disagree with your position that the rules are not consistently enforced. You have a right of appeal. I have seen every appeal for the last 7 years or so. A very small number of people are involved. The outcome of all of those appeals has been very consistent. They are used in conferences to help all of our Stewards stay on the same page.
I actually have thought several times we should put the rules in the book. They are so simple that it gets overlooked. The rules have been talked about for years in print. I personally wrote 4 years of columns describing many scenarios when I was Chief National Steward. But, you know that. They are gone over at every Orientation Meeting. But, you know that. I and others have included them in drivers meetings from time to time.
The car making a pass has the responsibility to complete a clean pass.
The car ahead at turn in has the corner. That means if you are not at least even, you should back out and follow the other car through the corner. If you are even then you must leave racing room.
Everyone must leave racing room. That means you cant hit people on purpose or run them off the track. It means you cant keep pressing when you have not earned a right to be there by your position at turn in. It does not mean that if you are pushing a pass you did not earn by being even or better at turn in and you get hit that you will not get a 13-13. It means that in some situations it is possible for two or more drivers to get a 13-13 sanction.
The rest is just common sense like. On a straight a blocking maneuver that results in contact is going to receive a 13-13. Driving errors like a money shift, loss of control, spinning, etc that result in damage to other cars are going to earn a 13-13.
Bryan H
06-05-2013, 05:08 PM
#39
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Interesting that many of the folks commenting here don't actually race with PCA and thus have no experience with these concepts.
Those that do surely don't think the facts about an incident that are presented by one of the parties on a forum in any way actually match the facts of an incident. They almost never do.
Out of here.
Thanks
Bryan
Those that do surely don't think the facts about an incident that are presented by one of the parties on a forum in any way actually match the facts of an incident. They almost never do.
Out of here.
Thanks
Bryan
06-05-2013, 05:12 PM
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Bryan, Thank you for jumping in. While the above descriptions may seem very obvious to many seasoned racers, not having them explicitly included in the rules or at least published in an appendix as guidelines creates the potential for problems, especially since most of us don't attend the orientation meetings at each event and our memories might be less than perfect. I have been in several discussions with racers at PCA Club Race events where one person believes the PCA overtaking rule is that the overtaking car must be even or ahead of the front bumper of the overtaken car at turn-in to be given racing room, while another driver believes that the overtaking car need only have the slightest overlap between his front bumper and the rear bumper at turn-in to be given racing room. You can see why these two divergent views can lead to problems. This problem is compounded because many of us race in multiple organizations, some of which use variations on each of the above interpretations. It would be helpful to be able to easily refer to the PCA rules/guidelines so that all PCA racers can be reminded of the applicable rules and be on the same page at every event.
Bryan
06-05-2013, 05:16 PM
#41
Scott,
We would love to have you come racing with us some day. It is explained very well in our orientation meetings.
I hope that you can be a pretty good judge of how far you are going to get up on a car by turn in. If not .......
Read the second sentence in the racing room paragraph.
It is also very similar to other organizations that have 13-13 rules for incidents and even some who have on the spot penalties for avoidable contact. Some have different levels of overlap required but there are reasons we don't have less overlap required, namely the fact that in our opinion less invites dive bomb passing. That is if I can dive into the corner and get some overlap the poor guy who cant see nearly as well as I can must get out of my way even though I am in his rear quarter panel while he fills my windshield.
If you don't think this is becoming the norm check out the stop and wait penalties being given to pro drivers for avoidable contact in this exact situation.
Bottom line is this works and most of our drivers want a vigorously enforced 13-13 rule. With that we had only seven 13-13's at COTA and 5 at Watkins Glenn. Seems as though most drivers get it. You really should try it.
Bryan
We would love to have you come racing with us some day. It is explained very well in our orientation meetings.
I hope that you can be a pretty good judge of how far you are going to get up on a car by turn in. If not .......
Read the second sentence in the racing room paragraph.
It is also very similar to other organizations that have 13-13 rules for incidents and even some who have on the spot penalties for avoidable contact. Some have different levels of overlap required but there are reasons we don't have less overlap required, namely the fact that in our opinion less invites dive bomb passing. That is if I can dive into the corner and get some overlap the poor guy who cant see nearly as well as I can must get out of my way even though I am in his rear quarter panel while he fills my windshield.
If you don't think this is becoming the norm check out the stop and wait penalties being given to pro drivers for avoidable contact in this exact situation.
Bottom line is this works and most of our drivers want a vigorously enforced 13-13 rule. With that we had only seven 13-13's at COTA and 5 at Watkins Glenn. Seems as though most drivers get it. You really should try it.
Bryan
I am not talking about dive bombs. Those are just idiotic. I am talking about the guy that uses the 13/13 rule and your 100% overlap statute as a weapon.
Is this the sentence you are asking me to read?:
"That means you cant hit people on purpose or run them off the track."
That's well and good. But the all the guy in front has to say is that there was not 100% overlap so he did not expect anyone to be there when he turned in.
What happens if I slightly miss-judge it thinking I can get 100% overlap and only get 85%? The lead car turns in and hits me...boom, I get a 13/13 violation when by all rights, he should leave me racing room.
Scott
06-05-2013, 05:19 PM
#42
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13/13 was intended to make this a gentlemen's racing series.
No specific count of warnings to reach a 13 - if ever. Something less than a 13 that can be a tool they can use to identify & better - warn drivers without immediate consequence that are too frequently involved in questionable actions, incidents or near incidents.
No specific count of warnings to reach a 13 - if ever. Something less than a 13 that can be a tool they can use to identify & better - warn drivers without immediate consequence that are too frequently involved in questionable actions, incidents or near incidents.
The primary, original purpose of the 13/13 was a) to make drivers THINK before they did something they'd regret, b) put drivers who HAD made a mistake on notice to THINK MORE (and think better) for awhile and c) function as a tracking mechanism for organizers to identify those with chronic patterns of behavior and those that didn't "get it."
Also, to protect the interests of drivers choosing to risk rare and unusual cars.
Pounding my "organizer" fist on the table at a big vintage event at Road Atlanta in 1990 arguing FOR strict application, not realizing that three hours later, I would get my first (of two, in twenty-two years) 13/13, didn't change my mind that the 13/13 rule is a good thing.
After I cooled down, I realized that my 13/13 was only a big warning and, if I stayed clean, I was fine. I stayed clean through the probationary period.
You have to have a specific count in order to track this behavior, ESPECIALLY in a National organization that has as many competitors as PCA Club Racing.
Exactly what Bryan and Vicki have to do.
It's been interesting. My experience this year is that PCA Club Racing is much more the way vintage used to be fifteen years ago, pretty quick with the 13/13.
I enjoyed the Rookie Orientation at COTA. It was well done with good video and explanation.
When vintage relaxed their application of the 13/13 with first dropping the "excused from the event, excused from the next event" requirement, then introducing the graduated probation periods (3/6/9 month), it has not proven particularly healthy in instilling the proper perspective in some drivers...
One of the reasons vintage has been headed back towards where PCA is now is to make SURE drivers think before they act...
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06-05-2013, 05:58 PM
#43
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Thread Starter
Here is the relevant section from the email:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would like to see a comprehensive rule book published addressing key rules/policies that are not currently covered including but not limited to blocking, leaving racing room, governing principles for passing, chopping, clear 13 definition (including unacceptable offensive use of the 13 - like sticking your nose in), etc. Every major race series publishes a rule book covering these key topics so that there is clarity for all racers and staff working the events. There is major confusion among club racers in PCA on all these topics. Most recently, several threads on Rennlist made it very clear that there is a wide array of understanding on these key areas among club racers. It's also clear that enforcement by the stewards varies from event to event (e.g., black flags for blocking at Lime Rock). If we want PCA club racers to operate within the rules, we need to create real clarity around the behaviors that are allowed and those that are not.
Recent Rennlist threads on blocking:
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...-blocking.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...k-flagged.html
Thanks again for you help.
Regards,
Sean Foster
Stock D
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This was from May 2012
Last edited by Sean F; 06-05-2013 at 06:29 PM.
06-05-2013, 06:22 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Sean - I think all of your emails are in the PCA spam filter, plus I know it looks for things like "passenger seats" and "external reservoir shocks"... 
Guess the "foul" is on the other foot. No worries Doug, I didn't want Sean to get probed alone!
Guess the "foul" is on the other foot. No worries Doug, I didn't want Sean to get probed alone!