jdistefa

Matt Romanowski

I'd go with Peter on this one. If you are driving the fastest way through the corner, you're not inviting a pass because someone can't do it.

winders

The fastest way through all corners is not necessarily the fastest way to the apex of all corners. You do understand that, don't you?

Seriously guys, we see cars of near equal speeds using defensive lines in racing all the time. If what you say were true, there would be no need.....

On some corners, you can beat a car on the "ideal" line to the apex and make the pass. You end up sacrificing exit speed but the car you beat to the apex that could have better exit speed is held up by you and can't utilize that speed.

Scott

hf1

Peter, this came a bit as surprise for me too. Do you care to elaborate in more detail? Are you implying that every car behind you in a race (even the one with, say, 75% overlap next to you) must allow you to drive the qualifying, optimal (single car) line around the track -- unless, perhaps, they manage to fully get ahead of you on a long straight? Honest question.

Cheyenne

I suspect he's saying that if you take the corner correctly, it's going to be hard to pass, and the only way it's going to really work is if an attacker can get up alongside well before turn in.

Inviting a pass is taking a sloppy late entry that makes it inviting to jump in there. Just as a sloppy exit invites one to just go around someone.

But in a proper corner entry, an attacker by definition has to be on a suboptimal line, if they were unable to get alongside down the straight. So a pass initiated at that point is not invited, it's just something you do by necessity to make the pass happen...and must be extra careful to not be the cause of an incident in doing so.

Otherwise, most good clean passes are set up to happen on corner exit, or previous to corner entry. A true dive bomb pass, (rather than a much faster car passing on a suboptimal line to avoid getting stuck behind a slower car i.e. Prototype vs GT) is always a bit of desperation isn't it? "I may not be faster than you, but I'd prefer to be in front."

Streak

I think Peter's example assumes that the drivers and cars are nearly equal. I drove my mirrors and defensively a lot. It took me a few years to embrace what Peter is saying.

In SPB the cars are very close in capabilities. I have yet to run onto a car that just flat out pulls me anywhere so that's a great thing for our class. What that means is Peter's example does work. If I have a guy on my tail and I'm focused on hitting my marks and I'm consistent and I'm getting in, thru and out of the corner and thereby running down the straights as fast as possible the equally prepared SPB behind me is not going to pass me (assuming drivers of similar competency). In order for that pass to happen I have to make a mistake and the SPB behind me has to be able to capitalize on that. Driving defensively and driving mirrors will eventually cause you to make that mistake. I find it's actually quite a lot less stressful to be looking forward Naturally you have to be aware of whats happening back there. When I start looking backwards and changing my line to defend I end up slower and eventually the guy behind me gets a run out of a corner and there's nothing I can do but watch him drive away.

Do I run into better drivers? Hells yes! But when I run with a similarly skilled driver to me the passing becomes a wait and pounce scenario.

hf1

Streak, of course you don't go defensive when no one is in a position to attack you, i.e. the other car is a car length behind you at turn in. But even with similar cars, and drivers of similar skill, there often exist opportunities to establish an overlap due to small variations in turn executions and exit speeds (not to speak of outright errors). Also, don't forget the draft. It plays an important role for low power cars of similar performance. (I race Mazda MX-5s with Skip Barber -- kinda similar to SPB, I guess).

Point being, the fact that someone has established ANY overlap with me on the inside before turn in means they did the previous turn better than me and I must allow race space for them into the next turn. I can't just drive my optimal, qualifying line as if they don't exist, go for the apex, block them, and make them either slam on the brakes, push them of track, or hit me. The overlap FORCES me to acknowledge their existence next to me. This is how I understand things, and this is what gets enforced at SBRS. The more I understand it and practice it, the more I like it.

EDIT (after reading Scott's post): And, yes, the only way to prevent that overlap is to take the inside (defensive) line first (otherwise that would be blocking) and force the trailing (but faster) car to either try the outside or wait for a better chance to pass.

winders

Streak,

If you have near equal cars and drivers, and the driver behind just follows you, he will never get by you. He has to do something different. In corners with little braking required, there is virtually no chance to pass a car that is using the ideal line. It's the corners that require a lot of braking where the driver has a chance to take a less than ideal line and make a pass.

I'll use a turn I know well, turn 7 at Sears Point, as an example. There is a long straight leading up to turn 7 which is a double apex hairpin.

If you come out of turn 6 on the tail of another car that is just as fast as you with a driver as good as you are, you can still make a pass if the lead driver chooses the ideal line. The ideal line is out toward the left edge of track. If the trailing car chooses a line inside the leading car, and brakes a bit later and a bit harder, you can beat the the leading car to apex without it being a dive bomb move. Yes, you have scrubbed off more speed and you have compromised your exit speed, but the other car is behind you now and really can't do much about it as long as you don't run too wide before turning in for the next apex.

The smart racer in the lead is going to take a tighter line than ideal into the corner so what I just described above can't be done. That would be the defensive line......

Scott

Streak

I wasn't saying to ignore the guy behind me and dive to the apex. If they get overlap they have done something better than me or more likely I did something worse which is my point and what you are saying. If I drive 100% perfectly and turn blistering laps on the fastest line it will be very difficult to get the overlap.

The brake zone example is a fair point.

EDIT: I've described several scenarios where I lose a position due to a mistake or because a superior driver got past me so let's get back to reality for a second and understand that I am far too awesome for anything like that to ever happen to me

jittsl

Streak, in some ways I'm repeating what others have said above but....

Here's what's wrong with the "just hit my marks" plan:
presuming that you are the lead car (and presuming that you are a sensible enough driver to accept that any amount of overlap should cause you enough concern to not simply carve my nose off) then (while you are out taking the fast line) all I have to do (as the follow car) is find a way to stick my nose in sufficiently to make you rethink your line. The minute I do, you will lose momentum and eventually I'll find a way to slow you more than I slowed myself by taking the "wrong" line. Kind of forms the basis of most passes in equal machines - I can't outgun you so I have to outwit you.

Think back to when we were bumper to bumper at VIR in race 1 2012 and you showed me that if I took the "DE" line into the left hander at the end of the esses that you could simply run up the inside (through a combination of ***** and skill), consequently screwing up my line and taking the corner despite having entered on the "wrong" side of the track. Then think to race 2, where having learnt my lesson, I simply took the slower defensive line moving across to the left well before the "DE" turn in - wasn't that the only race you've ever lost in your entire career?

ZSA Motorsport

first, great question. shows your thinking beyond the first layer. secondly, if you're seeing the second and third cars, kudos to you as a newer racer. countless wrecks come from not seeing the 2nd car in tow, drafting behind the passing vehicle.

i think high quality pro drivers, the ones that i watch and try to learn from, do a terrific job of managing traffic. if you're in GT car getting passed by a Dp or a competitor with fresher tires, they apply a little logic.

here the logic i apply, same logic i applied on a time trial bike. i want to be the fastest i can be, unimpeded in the areas of the track that are the most critical. to me, in the data i've reviewed, the most critical areas for impacting time are the slowest areas of the track. obviously i you want a track record or want to be pole, you gotta get it right everywhere, but if you have to sacrafice something, you odnt want it to be in the middle of some long turn 17 @ sebring, any of the slow turns at COTA. if you have lift just a smidge on the LRP uphill or get out of the gas 1/2 brake marker earlier, sure, it wont give you the best shot at a track record or pole, but its not going to jettison the lap time either.

Thus, if i were in a slower car being passed by a faster car, i would want that car in front of me before or side by side, me with the "DE" "Faster" line to the outside as we hit the brake marker. id rather lift early , let him by, as we brake, force him to the compromised/inside, and turn in right behind him and if im lucky get a tow out of the turn and maybe down the straight.

if there are a few cars there, if you can let the 2,3 by in the brake zone, again, you've compromised your optimal lap , maybe, but if you do it right and time it right, you can maybe even have a great lap, get towed up the straight, and not be at risk with 3 cars going under you midturn.

the faster cars, if truley faster car and they are in tow, racing, wnat to get by. they have to get by to some extent as they have pressure on them and if they dont make a move, someone will make a move on them. you have to read that as well.

Here's a suggestion for a lot of guys. same thing i tel my soccer kids who play at an elite level. you want to learn how to playsoccer, make sure channel 142 is on your DVR favorites, and you watch every bit you can. nothing is better to learn what works, what doesnt than watching the best do it. watch it, digest it, analyze it and then replicate the best.

all the topics on here are what happen all race long in grand am, wc, spec miata, etc. the best part about GA and WC and DTM and WTCC is that there are really decent commentators who can walk you through the process. i DVR all taht crap. i download it from mozilla to my hard drive. when im training inside on a rain day i watch video after video. im not a big fan of F1 for while i know those guys are sharp, i find the race less like what we see.

i think ga/ and wc are very relevant race series and if you watch guys like Longhi, Curran, Johnson, Auberlan etc. making moves, and the commentary explaining it...you start to better understand why those guys are the best and then can replicate that.

just dont replicate the shoving and pushing. thats crap that you dont want to replicate in club racing.

Streak

I must not be explaining myself well.

OK, my point is getting lost here. I never said to just drive like I'm the only guy on the track. I said don't drive your mirrors. I find that if I drive as fast as possible and hit my marks and don't make mistakes it's harder for someone to get by me than if I drive offline staring in my mirrors. Offline is slower. Looking backwards is when I miss brake or turn in points. That's what ensures the guy behind me is going to stay on my bumper and be in the right place at the right time to capitalize on the mistake I will make.

Assuming we are 100% equal, if I'm on the fast line and not making mistakes you can't get to me to put your nose anywhere to make me rethink my line. If you can then I'm slow somewhere or I made a mistake and we are no longer equal.

I'm not saying that driving defensively doesn't have it's place. Of course it does. If the guy behind you is just plain faster you have no choice.

Now take your example from VIR. I was able to get inside you at South Bend because I was consistently faster up the esses solely thru the benefit of seat time at VIR. Had you been as fast as me up that section of the track I never would have been able to get a nose beside you in that corner and you wouldn't have had to be defensive.

That's my point. Had you run the esses perfectly and hit your marks and kept a two car length advantage I could not have made that pass and you could have kept that advantage all the way around the track.

Now in sprint 2 my thermostat was stuck half way open so you were able to just drive away from the Oak Tree to the roller coaster

Passes like that are set up over several laps by the following car. Either waiting for the mistake, causing the mistake or little by little getting close enough to make a pass stick after patient analysis. They don't happen solely because one guy is on the qualifying line and one guy isn't. The guy who is not on the qualifying line must be better and faster in some portion of the track to make the pass.

The track has a lot to do with it as well. WG is wide and grippy everywhere so being offline is still fast. VIR is pretty narrow. And at my home track there is a large part of the track where equal cars are just not going to pass each other unless the lead car just explodes and stops dead.

The theory here is sort of like all those physics experiments that require a vacuum to be true like terminal velocity etc. The premiss does not account for many factors such as driver skills, track knowledge, cheater Texas motors etc.

Both approaches have their advantages and the situation will determine which you employ.

Here's a clip of us in the esses. Notice you turn a touch early in each S. That's where I was able to catch you.

jittsl

I think I now understand your point. Of course I completely disagree. I like to think we should all drive all around us Not just in front or behind. :-).

As to the bs about thermostats - whatever! Correct me if I'm wrong but I think it was my car they featured on the cover of the next issue of "club racing" taking the perfect line around the oak tree (and therefore the fastest entry onto the back straight in question).

Streak

Alright Jittsy! This is war! War I tell you!

Sterling Doc

Part of racecraft is managing your mistakes. If you have even the smallest slide coming out of a corner in a Spec car, and lose 1-2 MPH in exit speed, you know the person behind you is going to gain overlap by the next corner. At that point you can stay on the ideal line, and let that overlap happen with them on the inside, or make a small correction that costs you very little in overall time, but places your opponent in the position of having to go around the outside. This is not about cutting there nose off, or abrupt maneuvers, it is setting the stage for the next corner to your advantage.

When Spec cars are slightly more equal than others, it plays double. The following is a video from my rear facing camera at the last NASA Nationals. The car chasing me dyno'd at 141HP vs. my 136HP (this is in the pre-power cap era). Not a large difference, but just enough that overlap was inevitable at the end of the long straights. All I could do is make sure that the overlap happend where I wanted it.

BTW please bear with the music and bling. The edited version was used as a NASA promotinal video.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...type=2&theater

The full unedited (and no bling) video is here: https://vimeo.com/49207880#t=439

As an aside, would this be considered blocking by PCA rules?