Gary R.

Yes to the track position you reference. If i'm still not by after the carousel on the inside I will hold mid track right to T6 braking and usually will out brake the guy who now has to over-slow to make T6 on the inside, then i'm gone.. usually. If they shoot wide there to think they will over under me, i'm gone too..

BHunt 72T

That video is tough to watch. As stated, I know these are PCA rules, but that door looked pretty wide open. Is that the type of deal where the driver in front doesn't see you at all, or he does see you and says to himself "Hmmm, I see him at my rear wheel but he's not fully along side so I'm coming down anyway; he'll have to sort it out or we'll both wreck.''

I really am asking that question. What would everyone's thought process have been?

Gary R.

I would have expected to get hit, period.

Sean F

in PCA, the 13 is used as an offense weapon by many

Van

After watching this video at the track, I was talking with others about the "co-exist" rule - and was actually told that it was not mentioned or brought up at the rookie orientation class. Is there a real rule in PCA that the cars must co-exist? Or did I just make that one up?

On the one hand, Ernie's line was very wide into T5, making it an open invitation to pass (I certainly passed a few cars in exactly that fashion). On the other, Stach didn't have a very good "pass abort" plan. Watching the video, it is very clear that he lifts when he realizes that Ernie is moving over to the right... I think, in this situation, the contact could have been avoided by *either* driver making a different chain of decisions (for your educational purposes, Frank).

Think of the outcomes that could have been: the pass could not have been initiated; the pass could have been completed; the cars could have been side by side, giving Ernie the inside line to T6. If you were either driver, what would you have done?

winders

If the camera car in MSTACH's video is held at fault, PCA has some serious issues with its passing rules.

You need to leave racing room. You can't just plow to the apex because you want to.

Scott

winders

If I was the driver in the lead car, I would have left room on the inside. Not much room....but enough. Of course, I would not have left the room on the inside in the first place......

Scott

Van

OK, I've just spent some time reviewing the PCA Club Racing 2013 Rule Book: http://www.pca.org/portals/cr/2013%2...ule%20Book.pdf

And there is no mention of passing rules, how to overtake, who "owns" a corner, etc. It is really all distilled into the following statement (on page 6, under Driver Requirements):

So, in the incident we're discussing, if we were going to assign blame, we'd have to show that one driver or the other (or both) acted in such a way to place the other driver in a "damaging or dangerous situation".

But I agree, Scott - and I [hope to] drive in such a way that I either leave room for a car attempting a pass, or I don't leave an opening in the first place.

KaiB

Agreed.

I distinctly remember West D. outlining the "rear bumper" guideline in which when an overtaking car reaches your rear bumper, racing room (one full car width) must be given.

At NASA, I was told that this is a "drivers door" rule and that 3/4 of the track must be given.

I simply throw beer cans out the window, but nonetheless adhere to the rear bumper guideline in all cases.

Streak

Van I could swear that somewhere along the line I read that the point at which PCA determines who has the corner is at turn in. If there is an incident the car with even so much as a bumper in front at that point would be initially seen as the "victim." Now there are always a host of other circumstances but I believe that's where PCA starts the process and I could swear it's in the rules someplace. Maybe it's in some sort of rookie literature?

Doug007

PCA really needs to get their view on incidents in writing, in the rule book. (see NASA appendix on incidents as a guide).

I've always understood the PCA guidance to be that the overtaking driver is 100% responsible for making sure the pass is completed safely. That said, all drivers should be aware of the cars in front and behind at all times. However, putting the pass 100% on the passing driver gives the driver being passed an excuse for chopping down to the apex with no awareness that there is another driver there. Doesn't make any sense in PCA club racing IMHO. I would think a car width should be given when there is any overlap to help avoid contact.

Jack667

In the video posted, I find it interesting that the car being overtaken has no passenger side mirror. One can save some weight and pick up some aero, but at what cost?

winders

One does not need a passenger side mirror to have excellent visibility on the right side. I prefer to have only two mirrors to check instead of three......

Scott

Jack667

My race car has/had a parabolic (?) rear view mirror which worked well. I could see just about everything in one mirror. I still had both side mirrors for the heck of it. Even still, I clipped a guy once - similar to this incident but much less damage (almost none) at a race at Road Atlanta in Turn 7.
Maybe the issue was awareness/visibility, maybe not...

hunterpeaks

The Car in front has the corner and does not have to yield to the overtaking car until the overtaking car is "even" with the other car. In NASA, it's 3/4 of the car you have to be overlapping, before the car in front needs to give racing room, IIRC.

That was from the head-honchos this past weekend. I was one of the unfortunate that got a 13. Almost identical to the above video, but turn 11 and I was the "cream" in an Oreo Sandwich as another driver tried to make it three wide in turn 11. It was my fault ultimately and I accept full responsibility for that. I didn't "own" the corner. At the same time, I didn't have anywhere to go as someone was on my inside. He was able to nail the brakes hard enough at the last second to avoid a 13, but not the entire right side of my car. ;-(

Hunter