FrankyV

Yes by the rules he was clearly not fully along side by the turn in point but PCA has also been saying that the driver being overtaken has to leave racing room in that situation so I am curious whether any 13s were issued and to whom? MSTACH, can you comment?

I am of the camp that I don't have anything to hide and post up video of my mistakes and don't object if people snap pictures of the carnage I created. I believe that I and others can learn from a public airing of incidents, even though I recognize that there is an element of morbid curiosity for some, maybe most, folks.

FrankyV

Get back to us when there is some greatness to record and we'll let you know.

gums

Yeah, maybe you guys are right, I won't argue it to death, but there is a lot to be gained by watching and discussing. Stach gets a thanks for putting that incident up.
As a student of the sport, I study the history and the incidents. I want to know and I want to form my own opinions. It helps me to continue and it makes sense to share. I wish others weren't so keen to cover up, we all make mistakes. I teach my students to learn from each other.

Sean F

that could have ended very badly for everyone involved. it is amazing though how often that exact situation presents itself in that exact spot. it's very easy to stick your nose in there.

RSRRacer

There is very little to be learned from watching accident video.

- Accident video does not encompass all of the inputs that a driver experiences. There could be other card beside or behind him.
- You may be a better or worse driver than the driver of the damaged car.
- Environmental factors will be different

Last, but not least, do you really think you could make some kind of magical evasive maneuver to avoid an accident based on a video you saw online? That's just not realistic.

What could be learned is driver actions after they reach the point of no return, where they are just a passenger... i.e. hands off wheel. And, probably most importantly - AFTER the accident to see how completely f---d up your exit strategy can be if the driver door or window is compromised.

If you want to watch something - watch videos of how pros escape burning or damaged cars.

Matt Romanowski

I think there is sort of two things here - you come from an occupation where you learn by watching then doing, so you're normal method of learning is watching other people so you can copy it. Most people do not learn this way as much as you probably do.

The next thing is that we have to separate incidents into two categories. If someone runs out of skill and crashes, there isn't too much to learn from (IMHO). If it's a situation issue, like it Stach's video, then we can learn something from what happened.

Gary R.

I always plan on the dive to the apex if i'm not side-by-side before the downhill portion of that turn. Sometimes a little nose-sticking will slow them enough to blow by into T6 though..

BostonDMD

I still fail to understand why this was your fault?

Wasn't that a chop?

He hit you didn't he?

Maybe someone can explain because I have been in many similar situations (without the collision part) and had to back out to avoid the incident.......

Gary R.

He wasn't even alongside of him at the turn-in point, let alone ahead. PCA rules my friend. I can show you video of it happening to me in every turn on that track (just about every lap it T9.. ), it's just part of the game....

gums

Sorry, RSR, but that's just pure ignorance. We've had some of our most valuable analyses right in this forum from them. We have some very astute and professional observers who share valuable input. The Dave Scott's, Peter Krause's, Larry Herman's et al have helped us all, not to mention each other.

Your point is well taken, Matt, but I can tell you as a teacher and a public speaker that the most appreciated presentations and the best responses come from sharing errors in judgement, explaining the lessons learned, and having the humility to expose them, not hide them like every case you've ever done is amazing. At least that's my experience.

Streak

Hey! I'm a National Champion! You can't talk to me like that!

Veloce Raptor

Fetch me a sammich, knave

ProCoach

Not knowing all of the circumstances (nor the outcome), I applaud the posting of this video for the edification and considered thought of those who bother to look at it AND think about it and their own driving... Let's do a little PM here.

Not unusual because folks are in there for a LONG time, the exit from the bus stop varies from driver to driver, many don't have a very clear vision of what they want they want to do here and MOST drivers are not "on the limit," therefore are slow enough to abruptly change direction.

The BIGGEST danger the overtaking car is demonstrating in this video is "hanging" off the blind rear quarter of the car he wishes to overtake, exposing him to the incident, for WAY too long. Either get it done, or leave yourself more of an "out."

True, in this case.

I would HOPE you (and other faster drivers) are planning on rubbing with their right front tire, the intersection between the pavement and the curbing for several car lengths and closest abeam to the worker station.

Agreed, if you take the line away from the outside guy, you can accelerates strongly enough to beat them to the brake point for Turn 6. However, if the outside guy toughs it out and you are unable to capitalize on that, they'll get to the turn-in point at T6 in the same way you took their line away through Turn 5. Goes both ways.

I'm still struggling with the variation in assignation of blame in PCA Club Racing, and I don't know the outcome of this one, but I can see both ways.

If I KNEW there was someone overlapping me, I would leave a car width plus 6" on the inside to prevent that contact from happening. The potentially overtaken car car didn't do that. They did make an abrupt, sudden move (it appears) and left the overtaking car (MSTACH) no option but to hit him.

OTOH, there is no potential for contact if there is no overtaking car "sticking their nose in," which is the root cause of most 13/13 "responsibility" incidents.

As usual, this was not a static issue, the situation developed over time, neither driver really was very decisive and both got caught out.

It's never easy, but to answer the last (bold) question, unless you are side-by-side or nose-inches-ahead, it's the lead car's race track...

MSTACH had enough steam, IMO, to draw further alongside (at least evenly) while he was waiting for things to shake out, and stake claim to track position before the potentially overtaken car took the abrupt action he did that resulted in contact.

jcs_911

A familiar quote to those that know aviation:

> 9. Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make
all of them yourself.

BostonDMD

So how do you pass a higher powered car that is slow in the corners?

Can't pass him on the straight because he has more HP.......

he chops you in the corners with PCA permission , so..... what else is left?

Just suck it up and back off?