HPDE Experiences
03-24-2013, 12:43 PM
#107
03-24-2013, 01:56 PM
#108
Rennlist Member
PS: green run group = not open passing! There's plenty of coasting waiting for the opportunity to pass, and only in a "perceived straight." I will gladly admit to coasting on other occasions, though, including the end of the back straight. I'm on street tires, so coming into that left hander at 150 mph is not within my car's realm of capabilities, unless I just want to keep going straight. I can hit the top speed, but not the slower mark! Even with GTS brakes.
03-24-2013, 02:05 PM
#109
Rennlist Member
I apologized for the hijack once already, but I'll do it again. Sorry, seriously.
And I think this discussion would be a lot different in person. I think you guys think I'm some kind of troll, and it's really kinda sad to me how some of you are so completely unlike most of the folks I've met at these events. Which is why I'll just go to events instead of subjecting myself to this! To those that have provided constructive feedback, please accept my sincerest thanks.
Before I sign off of the thread, the most important thing the head instructor said at VIR: "The instructor on the track overrules me in the classroom, every time."
And I think this discussion would be a lot different in person. I think you guys think I'm some kind of troll, and it's really kinda sad to me how some of you are so completely unlike most of the folks I've met at these events. Which is why I'll just go to events instead of subjecting myself to this! To those that have provided constructive feedback, please accept my sincerest thanks.
Before I sign off of the thread, the most important thing the head instructor said at VIR: "The instructor on the track overrules me in the classroom, every time."
03-24-2013, 02:11 PM
#110
Rennlist Member
Back to whatever was going on with the original OP, just stay away from NASA Nor Cal for DE. Whole different culture in the marque schools (GGR, BMW, etc.) and the private ones that are 100% DE. But outside of PCA, not too many of us left with torsion bar car experience in Northern California who instruct at all. I usually try to search them out though it's unlikely I'll be at the track this year.
03-24-2013, 02:17 PM
#111
Rennlist Member
Other thing I saw in general in the early posts was why the focus on "days/events/seasons" of DE at certain levels. My second day on track ever was an SCCA licensing school. Can't say I was especially talented, but was competent enough. What did help me, and is wholly overlooked today, was having spent more-or-less the previous three years (18-21) corner working, crewing, working timing and scoring, helping with tech......and a LOT of observation of cars on track AND bugging experienced, successful drivers and crew.
03-24-2013, 02:29 PM
#112
I apologized for the hijack once already, but I'll do it again. Sorry, seriously.
And I think this discussion would be a lot different in person. I think you guys think I'm some kind of troll, and it's really kinda sad to me how some of you are so completely unlike most of the folks I've met at these events. Which is why I'll just go to events instead of subjecting myself to this! To those that have provided constructive feedback, please accept my sincerest thanks.
Before I sign off of the thread, the most important thing the head instructor said at VIR: "The instructor on the track overrules me in the classroom, every time."
And I think this discussion would be a lot different in person. I think you guys think I'm some kind of troll, and it's really kinda sad to me how some of you are so completely unlike most of the folks I've met at these events. Which is why I'll just go to events instead of subjecting myself to this! To those that have provided constructive feedback, please accept my sincerest thanks.
Before I sign off of the thread, the most important thing the head instructor said at VIR: "The instructor on the track overrules me in the classroom, every time."
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Many here have lead you to the water, it's up to you to drink it.
Don't post track videos to a track forum without understanding that they are, in general, a pretty tough crowd. Note that tough does not mean unfair or unreasonable.
-Mike
03-24-2013, 03:10 PM
#113
Rennlist Member
Criticism is hard to hear, being told everything is A-OK isn't. It's your choice to listen and take it in, or poo-poo what doesn't sound good and shoot the messenger. I hope you continue and someday come back to this and see it for what it is, people trying to help you.
03-24-2013, 03:21 PM
#114
On another point- It was mentioned in this tread - different instruction from different Coaches. Yellow 996 hit it on the head in #94 and Fred in #92. Making sure you are practicing and communicating the correct things. "Purposeful Practice" applies to coaches as well. The more the Coaches ride together equals consistency in communication and teaching the same basics. Consistent Instruction -a tough goal.
03-24-2013, 03:51 PM
#115
Other thing I saw in general in the early posts was why the focus on "days/events/seasons" of DE at certain levels. My second day on track ever was an SCCA licensing school. Can't say I was especially talented, but was competent enough. What did help me, and is wholly overlooked today, was having spent more-or-less the previous three years (18-21) corner working, crewing, working timing and scoring, helping with tech......and a LOT of observation of cars on track AND bugging experienced, successful drivers and crew.
Scott
03-24-2013, 04:13 PM
#116
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The video I have of past days was taken from an iP4 suction mounted to my windshield. End result is a nice view of the road but no hand, wheel or shifter coverage. For the upcoming weekend, I'm planning to suction mount the camera to the rear window which will capture the wheel, shifter and also the road ahead. Fingers crossed that PCA GGR will allow a robust Ram suction mount. Dave
03-31-2013, 03:28 PM
#117
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I attended my first PCA track day on Fri which was held under beautiful conditions at Thunderhill in NorCal. I was in the yellow (beginner) group and had two instructors over the course of the day. As most of you know, PCA runs a first class operation and the instruction was excellent. Also, there were only about a dozen cars in my run group so plenty of open space.
The beauty of the open track was that I could work on threshold braking which was not possible on my last outing due to slow traffic. I also had plenty of room to run at wide open throttle, again, something that I haven't been able to consistently do in the past due to traffic.
I videoed the last session using an iPhone on my windshield and a GoPro mounted on the rear window. The new version of HLT allows pic in pic which is helpful for reviewing the laps.
As a beginner, I was learning the brake and turn in points and tried to drive smoothly and consistently. One surprise was that my last three laps were all within a 0.23 sec window, ie, slow but consistent
Here's my last lap where I missed not one but two shifts 
And no, this was not the norm as I only recall one other miss all day. So yes, I'm setting myself up for ridicule so please be gentle 
Here's my 2:23 lap but sadly my GoPoint BT1 malfunctioned so that telemetry was screwed up. One of the key things I need to work on is looking further up the track. Constructive comments appreciated. Dave
03-31-2013, 04:27 PM
#118
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Interesting thread. A few comments and observations.
And everyone learns at a different pace. Some people process the information beforehand and then can soon execute, others put the fundamentals to bed, then progress. Try not to gauge your progress compared to others, focus on yourself and your own development.
Truth.
The former, good advice. The latter, the great draw of this sport.
Scott, that Ross Bentley-touted progression really makes sense, doesn't it? 
A good guide for all.
Great close, and agree with you about non-coherent teaching approaches being counterproductive. Most instructors who do this do so because they want to impart greater import to their input and some just don't know, but want to look like they do.
Outstanding observation and terrific advice to do "Purposeful Practice," not just riding around...
Courtshark, I look forward to seeing you enjoy VIR. It's a fabulous track, but after close to 8,000 laps on all configurations over the last fourteen years (yes, I drove rental vans on tours on the original track before restoration and repaving began in October of 1999), I can count on one hand how many times I've executed "perfect." And I've won more than 40 races there... It's always disappointing when an instructor has nothing more to tell you or worse yet, doesn't know what perfect is...
Good post. You can never go wrong with fundamentals. Much of my experience is the same as yours.
This is a big problem. While I believe that many instructors are just that (and there are damned good ones out there), few instructors are bona fide coaches. But that's another discussion for another day.
The variation comes from the subjective interpretation of a very complex scientific, technical and not entirely unemotional undertaking, conducting a car around the track. There are SO many variables that it can get hazy in a hurry. That's why you need to keep things simple. That's why data is your friend.
EVERY car can be driven quicker, better by someone else, be it Patrick, Joerg, Andrew, Leh or my friend and CI, John Sullivan. The WAY they use the car and how much of the performance envelope they use can be measured. Much of it is confidence, born of experience and knowledge.
The understanding and execution of fundamental skills required to fully exploit the car's capabilities is not only transferable, it's teachable. This is the way to build a firm foundation of skills that can be enhanced in a DE or racing environment. The physics don't know the difference.
There really is a science to this...
Good plan!
Haven't watched the video but congrats. You sound like you're doing well and doing "it" well with a great group of folks! Cheers.
Be careful of absolutes in concepts. For example, that it is inappropriate to go solo early on. I was well-prepared through careful study and I was intensely focused on learning the craft, not thrillseeking.
If you really want to leverage the resources, it IS helpful to go to places where the vast majority of folks are there for the same reason.
If you really want to leverage the resources, it IS helpful to go to places where the vast majority of folks are there for the same reason.
With mad skilz, a student might be consciously competent at driving the line after a couple of days but I think that they should be unconsciously competent before they go solo for good. If you are still thinking about your driving then you can't be thinking about what you are going to do if things go bad.
A good guide for all.My only gripe about some instructors is that they try to change your driving instead of working with your style. One instructor tells you to take an apex at a certain point and the next tells you that is wrong. Some things are fact and some are opinion and feel. A good instructor will recognize all of this and try to enhance and instruct, not change unless something is actually wrong.
In the spirit of McQueen (and Walenda) I truly feel most alive when I am in my car, at speed, and the time in between is just waiting.
In the spirit of McQueen (and Walenda) I truly feel most alive when I am in my car, at speed, and the time in between is just waiting.
I want to add something to this thread: Good track driving is VERY HARD to do. It takes a lot of all kinds of things -- concentration, technique, overcoming inherent reflexes, processing a tremendous amount of data very quickly, letting go of the last corner and working on the next one, looking ahead AND MUCH MORE.
Take it easy and relax. Don't be too hard on yourself -- and learn to do Purposeful Practice.
Fred
PCA National Certified Instructor
Chin, Nasa, Ferrari, SCDA, HOD instructor
Take it easy and relax. Don't be too hard on yourself -- and learn to do Purposeful Practice.
Fred
PCA National Certified Instructor
Chin, Nasa, Ferrari, SCDA, HOD instructor
I tell student, I'm going to force you break a bad habit by doing something wrong. but before the end of the day I going to get you back on proper technique. it usually works.
threshold braking is always at the top on my list... while downshifting.
for instance: -lots of drivers are transmission braking, and changing that can be hard. so you have to try different things to break the habit.
courtshark, you're doing fine. you just need more seat time.
save this video, and look back after 6-8 events... you'll see what we see.
threshold braking is always at the top on my list... while downshifting.
for instance: -lots of drivers are transmission braking, and changing that can be hard. so you have to try different things to break the habit.
courtshark, you're doing fine. you just need more seat time.
save this video, and look back after 6-8 events... you'll see what we see.
On another point- It was mentioned in this tread - different instruction from different coaches. Making sure you are practicing and communicating the correct things. "Purposeful Practice" applies to coaches as well. The more the coaches ride together equals consistency in communication and teaching the same basics. Consistent Instruction -a tough goal.
The variation comes from the subjective interpretation of a very complex scientific, technical and not entirely unemotional undertaking, conducting a car around the track. There are SO many variables that it can get hazy in a hurry. That's why you need to keep things simple. That's why data is your friend.
EVERY car can be driven quicker, better by someone else, be it Patrick, Joerg, Andrew, Leh or my friend and CI, John Sullivan. The WAY they use the car and how much of the performance envelope they use can be measured. Much of it is confidence, born of experience and knowledge.
The understanding and execution of fundamental skills required to fully exploit the car's capabilities is not only transferable, it's teachable. This is the way to build a firm foundation of skills that can be enhanced in a DE or racing environment. The physics don't know the difference.
There really is a science to this...
OP here. I was going to let this thread die but I had enough positive comments that I thought I'd give an update.
I attended my first PCA track day on Fri which was held under beautiful conditions at Thunderhill in NorCal. I was in the yellow (beginner) group and had two instructors over the course of the day. As most of you know, PCA runs a first class operation and the instruction was excellent. Also, there were only about a dozen cars in my run group so plenty of open space.
The beauty of the open track was that I could work on threshold braking which was not possible on my last outing due to slow traffic. I also had plenty of room to run at wide open throttle, again, something that I haven't been able to consistently do in the past due to traffic.
As a beginner, I was learning the brake and turn in points and tried to drive smoothly and consistently. One surprise was that my last three laps were all within a 0.23 sec window, ie, slow but consistent
One of the key things I need to work on is looking further up the track.
Dave
I attended my first PCA track day on Fri which was held under beautiful conditions at Thunderhill in NorCal. I was in the yellow (beginner) group and had two instructors over the course of the day. As most of you know, PCA runs a first class operation and the instruction was excellent. Also, there were only about a dozen cars in my run group so plenty of open space.
The beauty of the open track was that I could work on threshold braking which was not possible on my last outing due to slow traffic. I also had plenty of room to run at wide open throttle, again, something that I haven't been able to consistently do in the past due to traffic.
As a beginner, I was learning the brake and turn in points and tried to drive smoothly and consistently. One surprise was that my last three laps were all within a 0.23 sec window, ie, slow but consistent
One of the key things I need to work on is looking further up the track.
Dave
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
03-31-2013, 05:41 PM
#119
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
My 09 Carrera S is bone stock and I'm running RE 050A's at 34 and 39 psi hot. I know I was too slow through turn 1 but I'm quite fond of my car and did not want to go off. Nonetheless, I was working the speed up throughout the day. The missed shifts were unfortunate but oh well. I should have short shifted 3 > 4 after turn 5 because I quickly hit the rev limit and then shift up for only a few seconds before the brake point and then back to 3rd. I was also too slow through 8 but, as in turn 1, I was working my speed up. I had the most trouble with 10 as the apex is hidden by the crest in the road so it's hard to get the brake point just right. And then there's 11-13 series and 14-15 where I also need to improve.
This was essentially my 3rd track day as the last time out was what triggered this thread and that was a wash (I left early after a number of parade laps).
Lot's to learn and I can't wait to get back up there. Dave
03-31-2013, 05:58 PM
#120
The Penguin King
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Honestly, its really too soon in your driving experience to worry too much about getting critique from video. Listen to your instructors and get seat time. LOTS of seat time.
I am curious about who you ran with and what the experience (other than fewer cars) was like.
I am curious about who you ran with and what the experience (other than fewer cars) was like.