BostonDMD

Courtshark..... my advice is.......

start your own thread
ask for advice
protect yourself with tough skin and
be willing to take constructive criticism........

and you will be amazed of how much you can learn and how many of the members here you will meet at the track to make your DE experience much more rewarding.....

Ask me how I know.......

fhp911

I want to add something to this thread: Good track driving is VERY HARD to do. It takes a lot of all kinds of things -- concentration, technique, overcoming inherent reflexes, processing a tremendous amount of data very quickly, letting go of the last corner and working on the next one, looking ahead AND MUCH MORE.

I always tell my students not to be too hard on themselves. NOBODY EVER HIT A PAR ROUND OF GOLF ON THEIR SECOND OR EVEN TENTH ROUND OF GOLF -- track driving is at least as difficult and demanding.

Take it easy and relax. Don't be too hard on yourself -- and learn to do Purposeful Practice.

Fred
PCA National Certified Instructor
Chin, Nasa, Ferrari, SCDA, HOD instructor

Courtshark

PS: green run group = not open passing! There's plenty of coasting waiting for the opportunity to pass, and only in a "perceived straight." I will gladly admit to coasting on other occasions, though, including the end of the back straight. I'm on street tires, so coming into that left hander at 150 mph is not within my car's realm of capabilities, unless I just want to keep going straight. I can hit the top speed, but not the slower mark! Even with GTS brakes.

Yellow996

Courtshark...
I have over 100 DE days under my belt, I'm an instructor and I've been Club Racing for a year now. Just last week, a fellow instructor offered to show me a different line on two corners at NJMP's Thunderbolt. So, off we went to look at the track map in the classroom and spent 10 - 15 minutes talking about it. The next session, I gave a point-by to another Club Racer so that I could follow his line around the track.

The point is, you have to be open and willing to accept and seek criticism and advice without getting your nose bent out of shape. We all want to get better at this because that only increases the fun level. But, going solo too early and too often can be detrimental to your development as a driver.

DE is filled with guys/girls who get to the White Run Group and never progress to Black and Red because they think they know everything and stop seeking advice and coaching. My advice is that if a dedicated instructor is willing to plant his/her rear end in your car for EVERY session and doesn't just turn you loose so that he/she can get his/her trailer loaded a little earlier, take advantage of it. Someone in that passenger seat can be a valuable asset. Plenty of time to solo later.

Have fun and enjoy this hobby for many, many years!

Streak

Courtshark,

Ultimate frisbee is a terrific pastime. Just sayin'

Kidding! Don't give up or get discouraged. It only gets more fun. It gets even more fun the better at it you get. Absorb all you can and apply it.

Frank 993 C4S

Dave, try your local PCA chapter. PCA runs great and safe events. Attend them consistently, be humble and make friends that you drive with. Get some good instruction and maybe hire a coach. There is nothing better than shaking hands with other drivers after a good session.

Couple of very basic points:

1) Check your brakes on pit out
2) Not sure what you were trying to do with the weaving as you exited pit lane on the first lap. I hate people weaving during DEs as it gets confusing to people behind you.
3) Shuffle steering - it's a no no. If you lose traction, drop a wheel or spin you have no idea which way your wheels are pointing
4) For heavens sake, please don't let go of the steering wheel and wave to people that let you pass. You can thank them AFTER the session
5) Learn how to heel-toe
6) Relax

Courtshark

Thanks for the additional comments. I am indeed looking to learn, but the apparent hesitance to be at all specific suggested to me that I was a basket case beyond assistance, despite two veteran PCA instructors telling me otherwise. My instructor at VIR was saying things like "that was perfect." So yeah, maybe that went to my head, and apparently he was wrong? Or it doesn't show on the video? Dunno. I know I love watching them.

mrbill_fl

I'm guilty of this.

but I tell student, I'm going to force you break a bad habit by doing something wrong. but before the end of the day I going to get you back on proper technique. it usually works.

threshold braking is always at the top on my list... while downshifting.

for instance: -lots of drivers are transmission braking, and changing that can be hard. so you have to try different things to break the habit.



courtshark, you're doing fine. you just need more seat time.
save this video, and look back after 6-8 events... you'll see what we see.

KaiB

Truth...and do ask him how he knows.

I'd forgotten that EPIC thread.

mglobe

First of all, no one said you suck. They offered constructive criticism based on the videos you showed. They, like me, assumed that you wanted helpful comments. This board has a lot of very experienced racers and instructors on it. Some of them race or have raced at very high levels. Some of them make a living coaching drivers. If you put a video up here, and you are not Pat Long, Andy Lally,... expect something other than "holy crap you are driving the hell out of that car".

As an instructor, I can tell you that while the folks with God given talent, who pick things up very quickly amaze me, the people who really impress me are the ones who don't come by it naturally. I love the students who check their egos at the door, and work and work to make it up the run-group ladder. Some of them may never get to the top run group. But they keep coming back, they keep getting better, they listen, learn, and HAVE FUN.

TXE36

Firstly, video in the car is very good to have. It also appears that you have good sound, also a plus. The video that is most valuable for learning is inside the car where it captures the outside view, the wheel, the shifter, and if possible, at least you legs. The interior view you have is pretty good, but the outside portion is washed out. If you are using a GoPro, set it to spot metering mode and it will fix it. If not, you will need to build a filter for the camera to balance out the very bright outside and dark interior. Good interior video with sound is a poor man's data collection system.

As for the criticism, you are shuffle steering badly. I didn't watch the whole thing but this was obvious as well as some points where you were not holding on with both hands. I've been there, done that. I posted a video in a different forum about how bad this chowder head in front of me was driving and the blow back was why was I shuffle steering . It was pretty brutal. I spent nearly two weekends working on just proper hand position and nothing else to break that habit. None of my instructors had criticized me for it. My assumption with the instructors is they felt it more important to work on other things. It's only a 20 minute session, so one has to prioritize and if a habit is bad, but generally not unsafe, it may be ignored for that session to work on something else.

You also don't want to get in the situation where you spend say a three day weekend running slow and then finally get an instructor in the car Sunday morning because you come to him saying something is wrong. After two laps he says, this is easy to fix, you are coasting and two laps later I'm back where I was supposed to be -- after pissing away two precious track days! So I've got the T-shirt on that one as well. I understand wanting to be out there on your own. Sometimes I don't want the chatter of the instructor. That's fine, but if you are going to do, get an instructor in the car early in the weekend so you don't **** away the time, tires, and gas.

The passenger really has an advantage in they they aren't responsible for actually driving the car, so they can really observe. I almost hate to relate this experience, but I got an opportunity to take my wife out on the track as a passenger. She is supportive of what I do, but had no track experience nor training. After the first run she commented that I seemed to hesitate at times when I should have just gone -- this is exactly the same criticism I've received from bonafide instructors and it's one of the things I'm working on.

So I'm going to relate one more story. VR, who posts on this forum, is an instructor for LSR PCA as well as a professional driving coach. He has a 1997 BMW M3 track car that is is quite nice with a Moton suspension, full cage and race tires, among other things. With him driving it, I believe it is a sub 2 minute car at TWS. I've been in the passenger seat and I describe the experience as a carnival ride.

I've got a 1999 BMW M3 track car that isn't nearly as nice from a track car perspective, as it is more of a street car. VR has not been able to instruct me in it because he literally doesn't fit in the passenger seat, so I had him drive it. With me as the pilot, a 2:07 is a good lap. With him piloting it, the feel from the passenger seat is exactly the same as it was when he was driving his car. I've been doing this long enough to expect that the biggest difference is the driver, but I was quite surprised it was to that extent. Frankly, if we traded cars he would still kick my *** around the track.

The session VR drove was spoiled because the run group just wasn't letting anybody pass. There is maybe 1 1/2 laps worth of real driving in there and that little bit was enough for me go from 2:07 best, 2:10is average to 2:05 best with a 2:07 average when I drove the car an hour later. You gain a lot from the passenger seat because you don't have to drive the car -- you can devote 100% of your attention to feeling the car. Being that it's your car, you can dispel the notion right away that the difference is the car.

So, the point of all of that is find some instructors you especially trust and let them drive your car. I've got a 1/2 dozen or so guys I've let know they have an open invitation to drive mine.

I think the criticism you have received is appropriately specific. These guys were not in your car and only have the video to judge from. There are many subtleties that are just not obvious from video, but some of them are. Shuffle steering is one of them and you now have a specific to work on. The good news is shuffle steering is something you can fix without an instructor if you are honest with yourself. Use a track day or so just to fix that if you want -- but definitely get instructors in your car -- you can't fix what you don't know is wrong or needs improving.

Also pay attention to the instructor run group. If you look carefully, you will note a lot of two person cars. Learning and instruction never ends.

-Mike

Courtshark

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...ng-and-de.html

Still reading through that thread, but shuffle steering is apparently akin to the turbo vs. supercharger arguments. I am not making it up that my first PCA instructor, someone who is well known in the area as one of the better teachers, specifically taught me to do it! And I feel like I'm in better control of the car for it. I tried the arms crossing style, never leaving 9&3. My Momo wheel has nice indentations and more bulbous spots to guide and maintain the grip, too. But I felt less in control of the car. When the instructor saw me do it, on our first run together, he immediately changed my method, proclaiming the arms crossing method to be dangerous. Dangerous for me as a newbie? Perhaps.

One of my other videos includes a nice little drift around the oak tree. Unfortunately you can't see my hands (camera was on the roof) but it worked out just fine. Got the car 30-45 degrees sideways, corrected, and straightened out. Yeah, I hit the wipers. Instructor: "nice save."

Gary R.

You hijacked another guys thread, whine about comments not being "specific enough", you argue about when they are, and it's clear you took your instructors "perfect" comments to heart. You are NOT perfect, not even close, most likely never will be - get that in your head. Either am I and I do pretty well and have well over 100 DE days, about 30 days instructing, and about 35 races behind me since 2006. You drifted through Oak Tree and saved it, I would have said "thanks for not killing me noob, now pull in the pits so we can discuss it"... that's honesty from an instructor to a beginner.

TXE36

We have an instructor in our region who likes shuffle steering. However, shuffle steering is not sloppy steering and you should not need to do it as much as you do.

Getting specific, I saw sloppy in your first video back at post 66 at:
0:38
0:58
1:20 if I were instructing I'd literally hold your hand*
1:45
2:41
skip to 6:28
6:36
6:46 let go of wheel for return
8:15 linger on the shifter

*I've literally done this to an instructor who got lazy on the front stretch of TWS. I couldn't believe it and it took about a nano second for him to realize it when i grabbed his hand. See even instructors can benefit from "instruction" from non-instructors.

First video in post #85:
Opening looks one handed
0:44
skip to 5:30
5:56 looks happy handed
6:16 looks one handed
6:42 no need to shuffle
7:24 much better
7:38 don't need to shuffle here
7:50 shifting in the turn?
7:53-8:04 appears one handed

It looks like you had an instructor during this session.

Look, I'm hoping you have a Jake Blues "See the light moment" from this thread. Compare the following two videos:

Me, September 2011, TWS CW:
Me, March 2013, TWS CCW:
Honestly, which looks more like you?

For reference, here is VR driving my car:
My advice, put on a flameproof suit and absorb the advice instead of trying to refute it.

-Mike

mglobe

And then there are those who ask for input, but never listen.