dasams

I just had my 3rd track day yesterday and wanted to get your thoughts on the event.

For background, I bought my 911 last Dec and had my first track day in Jan at Thunderhill and my second in Feb at Sonoma Raceway. Both were with HookedOnDriving in the beginner group and I had an instructor all day. The events were professionally run and I received great instruction and had a great time.

My third event was yesterday at Sonoma with NASA. As this was also a race day, it was a very busy day with three HPDE groups, four race groups and the hyperdrive event.

Since I had driven Sonoma before, am comfortable with the line and the pace, I registered in group 2 which means I would drive solo (group 1 had instructors). I'm not sure that two track days qualifies for group 2 but I wasn't challenged which got me wondering: are there others in this group with less experience than me? I'll also point out that I reviewed video of my last outing, have read the track notes and had memorized all the turns, apex locations and correct gears.

One other thing that I didn't know until the email a few days before was that HPDE groups 1 & 2 were combined and there were a lot of cars, possibly over 50. Besides crowding, there was a large disparity in the skills and speeds which made for some uncomfortable times

Here's how the day went from my perspective. Arrive at 7:15 to have plenty of time for the 8:00 drivers meeting. Meeting over at 9:00 and we prep for our 10:25 start.

I lined up about 6th in the HPDE 2 group but NASA likes to send out the HPDE 1's in front 'because it works better'. Fair enough but this means it'll be slow going.

Early on, I catch up to an M3 (also in HPDE 2) who has no idea of the proper line as he's early apexing everything. That includes turns 2, 3 and 3A all of which should be late apexed. On Turn 4, he's so high on the curb that I watch the paint pass under the middle of his car. I'm thinking that if he gets two wheels off track, he'll correct it hard which means he'll probably shoot over right in front of me and spin. A little scary, especially watching him early apex 11, a 180 deg right which has a wall but no run off room.

Midway through the session we were really bunched up but that didn't stop passing which, per NASA, does not require a point by. On the straight between 6 and 7, the corvette behind me decides to make his move. I wouldn't even consider a pass as there were 10+ cars in front of me all bumper to bumper. Where does the corvette think he's going? Oh, pass on the right and then in the braking section, someone will let you in, just like on a backed up freeway exit. Net result, he passes three cars and each of us moves back one spot to let him in. Someone forgot to remind him this isn't a race

Session over and there's plenty of time to kill because our second session doesn't start until 1:35. This time, thankfully, they send out the HPDE 2 cars in front of the 1's but not before letting some Miata's out first. This is not necessarily a bad thing as they are pretty fast on this course.

Uh oh, on the first lap, a Miata about four cars in front of me loses it in turn 8 (the esses) and hits the wall. Cold tires? Incorrect early apex? I couldn't tell but that was unnerving.

I had been following a Toyota Celica who was pretty fast and clearly being held up. After lap 3, the other Miatas exited opening up a gap in front of a Cadillac who was blocking the Celica. There's a straight after turn 6 (the Carousel) but the Caddy tracks out and stays on the right blocking the passing lane (NASA requires right side passing on this straight to avoid getting pinched at the kink). After the kink, he slides to the left and the Celica shoots by but it's too late for me

Around 7 and then through the esses and the Celica is flying. Well, maybe too fast as he loses it in turn 8 and hits the wall. As I go by, I can see left side damage all along the car. I'm thinking what the F is going on? Frustration level high so people are losing patience? I had spoken to the driver several times that day and he said he's driven the course 6-7 times so he must know the line.

That second incident was enough for me and I packed up and left. In hindsight, I regret that I didn't attend the download session to learn more and find out if the Celica driver was ok. All in all, a down day

Compared to my HookedOnDriving outings, this was a complete 180. Anyone have similar experiences? Dave

FEKGT3

Good experiences with NASA NE & FL now but when lived in San Francisco used to participate in DE events with track masters and enjoyed. No affiliation.
trackmasters-racing.com

Vonschmidt

Sorry to hear your experience, don't give up. First and formost you should never promote yourself. If you are in group 1 then that is where you need to be, an instructor will let you know when it's time to move on.

Our sport is based on trust we each trust each other, the club trusts the registrants, etc. NASA took your word for it that you were a group 2 and I think a lot of your experience could have been mellowed by an instructor.

No doubt that would have had you make a run down the hot pits to get these trains out of the way and give you some good open air to work and learn in.

Bottom line get back into instruction,even after years of driving the best hire coaches to help them, why would someone new be any different.

But make sure you go back the experience only gets better.

MayorAdamWest

My experience was somewhat similar at Sonoma with NASA a month ago. Long trains, frustrated drivers driving overly aggressive and recklessly. I don't know if the teachers were not giving good instruction ( mine was great ) or what. It did turn me off of NASA. I may give them another shot, but I want to get in to group 3, which was far less crowded. Way too many cars in group 1 and 2. On the flip side, the people were all very nice.

Streak

You probably would have been more comfortable had you had an instructor with you. Maybe you would not have left.

I've run with some groups that are pretty loose with the self promotions (not that I would ever take advantage of that ) but never with NASA.

I've only raced with NASA but as far as I know they run a good ship over here. Relaxed run group qualifications can be disconcerting and unnerving particularly with the grand total of 3 track days under your belt. Don't let it prevent you from running with them again. If it feels the same to you the second time maybe other clubs beckon.

cannon1000

Personally I would stick with events (for now) that allow you to spend time with an instructor and don't include racing or time trials during the weekend. The smaller the events the better. Another thought is that clubs that have more groups will typically have less cars and less disparity between driver skill level.

PCA does a great job IMO of getting new drivers to a safe level of Soloing - once they have moved you to a solo group. Then I would then start venturing out to new clubs. After just two or three events you may be good enough to solo - but why not get as much cheap instruction as you can? It can only help.

Even after you are in a solo group - there is nothing wrong with asking for a check ride with an instructor.

The fact of the matter is that bad drivers will always be in every group it is part of the risk we take in this hobby. People slip through the system - just as many here would say that you did as well. NASA runs a great operation and I am frankly surprised that with your first event with them you got through...someone clearly messed up there.

Reading your story there are a few things you could have done. You could have told the Chief instructor about your concerns about specific cars. You could have pulled into the pits and wait for more space. You could have dropped out of the session early - it is up to you to know what is an acceptable risk. You could have just left the event early and take your car home in one piece.

P.S.
I wouldn't always assume because someone is not on the "right" line - that they are a bad driver. People practice the wrong line all the time because it is a skill every solo driver should have - but is seldom taught - because what are you going to do when you are off line the first time and you don't know how to correctly take it ? Given you were in a NASA event, it is even more likely that the M3 driver was taking early apexes as people will typically earn their competition license though them and they do a good job of teaching driving in uncomfortable positions on the track. That driver may have been practicing those lessons. Without knowing you don't know wether it was practice or stupidity.

dasams

During my first outing with HoD, I was promoted to Solo. Since my second outing was on a track new to me and very technical, I asked for instruction.

My thoughts exactly as I watched group 3 run and it looked great. Once I get there, I too may give them another shot.

Perhaps but the primary reason I decided to leave was because the group wasn't operating at a safety level that I think should be required with HPDE 1's and 2's. As an example, point by's should be required IMO.

Agreed and I'll be at Thill with PCA in two weeks.

I was quite clear on my application that I had two track days under my belt and was surprised that no one wanted to check me out or at least ask a few questions. Thanks for your input!! Dave

Coochas

It is a normal reaction to want to fly solo, but you are doing yourself a major disservice by doing this so early. PCA as far as I know does not allow self promotions. In my region NCR (and sister region NER), people spend MANY days at the track before being allowed to run solo. When people fly solo earlier than they should, they put themselves as well as others in danger.

I would hit up a PCA event since there are plenty of instructors who know what to do with those engines that hang over the rear axle. Let yourself rise through the ranks with time and you'll end up a safe and fast driver. Then one day you'll feel high and mighty and write posts like this one even though you're just an amateur weekend warrior!!!!!!!

MayorAdamWest

The problem that I saw with this story, and my own experience, had nothing to do with self promotion, which NASA usually doesn't allow, but that there were way way too many cars in hpde 1+2 and that the people, even with instructors, were driving somewhat recklessly. I would have left too had I see 2 accidents in 2 sessions along with several other drivers who put me and my car in danger. I don't think the guy in his lowered civic understands the cost if he hits my 991S. I hpde1 and 2 people should not be driving aggressively.

dasams

I'm looking forward to my first PCA DE in two weeks and will be arriving the night before for the mandatory orientation.

Veloce Raptor

Two into-the-wall impacts in a DE group in less than one day?

Wow.

hlee1169

Would that be PCA GGR's Thunderhill? If it is, looking forward to seeing you, they run great events. My experience with NorCal clubs usually is better with clubs with stricter rules, and very bad with loose rules. I prefer PCA GGR and Diablo, and HOD. Bad experience with Trackmasters at this event when they let newbie ran in the high intermediate group because it was less crowded, and let advanced run in the intermediate group for the same reason. The newbie had no idea what he was doing, the advanced did not obey the pointby rule and passed me and the car in front of me when I was not expecting. After a father lost it at turn 11 at Laguna Seca and his son in the passenger seat got injured, I packed early and left. Like you, I felt the organization was too loose.

I get that the advanced drivers prefer less rules, but the rules exist to protect the less experienced drivers. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

PJorgen

Full disclosure - I instruct with HOD and think they are one of the best organizations available on the west coast.

I've had a few experiences with the local NASA group and would never recommend them for a noobie. Come on - 50 cars on track! Combining groups with and without instructors! Open passing for beginners at Sonoma! WTF are they thinking?

You clearly made the right decision to go home.

dasams

That's two in three laps and then we were black flagged on the session. I don't regret bailing.

Indeed, I'll be there Thu night and run with the Fri group. Looking forward to it.

My sentiments exactly. On the open passing, the corvette that passed me in session 1 came around me between turns 10 & 11 and this was after the Celica went off on turn 8. Jeeze, since everyone else had lifted, I didn't expect a pass. Dave

Mahler9th

Hello. You are living in one of the best places to start a Porsche DE/Track Driving/Racing hobby in the United States. The amount of Porsche experience, expertise and support in NorCal has been nearly unparalleled for decades.

I attended the event at Sears Point on Saturday, visiting with many friends including those in the Porsche Racing Club. PRC races under NASA sanction, and many of our wives/SO's do all of the scoring at NASA NorCal events. We have a great relationship with NASA, and NASA is an excellent organization.

You may want to consider picking your organizations and venues very carefully as you go forward. As a Porsche owner, I urge you to use the GGR as your driving "home base" as you climb the experience curve. This will give you the best possible basis from which to learn and gain experience. I cannot emphasize this enough... feel free to send me a pm if you want more perspective.

I know the people that run HOD, Trackmasters, NCRC and a variety of other area groups and organizations. And I have instructed with most. They are all great in their own ways.

One of the benefits of focusing early on GGR is that when you drive with these other groups, you will be better prepared for situations where there is a wider range of behaviors and motivations.

NASA NorCal's programs have come a long way since they started. My first NASA DE was way back in 1997 or so. They have a great team of caring people and teachers. But they are running a different type of system than HOD, Trackmasters and the PCA. For example, you can encounter as many as 50-80 cars in a NASA DE group. This is not necessarily bad, but it is a different type of experience than running in a PCA GGR event, and it pays to have the proper expectations from the onset.

From a venue standpoint, Sears point is a lot safer than it was when I did my first DE there back in the day. But it is still a pretty unforgiving place. Total loss accidents are not uncommon in DE's. When I started, the expectation was 1-2 cars per event. It is technical and relatively unforgiving.

When you consider its nature, for many it is better to try Sears Point only after 3-4 events at places like Thunderhill, Buttonwillow and Laguna Seca. And better to try Sears Point with a group like HOD or Trackmasters if PCA GGR is not an option.

Perhaps the key difference between the GGR and all of these other groups is that GGR will have the highest percentage of drivers and instructors that are 100% focused on the craft. These other groups will have a few more folks with alternate motivations like thrillseeking and so on. These other motivations are not necessarily bad, but you need to understand the cultural differences.

I encourage you to watch "Going Faster!" I encourage you to read and re-read Hank Watts' book Secrets of Solo Racing. I encourage you to access and review any and all materials available on the GGR web site. I have recommended these things to Porsche beginners for a couple of decades.

Leverage your resources... they are bountiful for Porsche drivers in our area.