multi21

oh the irony..... ..... Prost and Senna never punted each other to win a title?

We'll never know what could have been with Senna, but Prost had a full career and IMO there is no comparision.

The one thing in common with all the aforementioned multiple WDC is that none of them are choir boys. With the exception of Alonso, the newer generation WDC, (Kimi, Button, Hamilton, Vettel) don't seem to have that same win at any cost streak.

multi21

The Kimister....

perfectlap

not as easy as re-writing the record books in a car that drove itself for five consecutive seasons, one that had fewer engine failures and other mechanical issues than any other driver in all of Grand Prix history had ever lucked into for any five seasons of their careers and certainly not five on the trot. An easy task for any competent driver that was made a literal cake walk by removing the fast team mate obstacle, one that Senna, Prost, Piquet and Mansell had all faced.

All of the Ferrari team's concentration and $$$$ was put behind that one little car. Just compare that to Barichello's mechanical issues in the seasons they were team mates, now THOSE were the Ferraris we were used to seeing. Single digit DNF % F2000 cars for Rubens? Ha ha. Look at Jim Clark, a driver famous for being extremely easy on his equipment whose brakes were changed just as a matter of procedure, they came off after each race practically brand new. Even with that his DNF % was still into the double digits. Schumacher's Ferraris? I doubt is was more than a 4% mechanical DNF rate. The real genius of Schumacher's five Ferrari championships were the guys at the factory behind the PC monitors.

And if you think that was limited to just the red cars, take a look at the DNF % of Brawn's Benetton cars in Schumacher's two championship seasons. Those cars were every bit the equal of the Senna/Prost McLarens on reliability, aero and with Renault they more than covered the power part. The 1994 Benetton made even Adrian Newey's 2nd best car look like a nervous mess in comparison. I doubt Schumacher had even two engines fail in both of those seasons. So yes, Schumacher had more than enough equipment behind him at Benetton and Ferrari to have bested Senna's 65 poles by more than just three. Either Senna or Prost with #1 driver status in those cars would've had well over 100 career poles, ditto for wins. Same 7 championships too. Actually probably 8 titles since Schumcher stalling on the grid in Suzuka all but handed the title to Hakkinen. Senna and Prost were both better under pressure, no one debates this.

gums

^^interesting observation, that^^

But also don't discount that Schublocker did take a few years to transform and build that team into something perfectly suited to him. Gotta give him that much.

perfectlap

This is true but that transformation was well under way by Jean Todt before Schumacher had arrived. Todt was just missing the Brawn element to get efficient use of their funds in tackling durability and consistency. Their cars had pace, they just fell apart. Actually much of that credit was started with Luca Montemozzolo who upon his arrival quickly discovered that the quality control/checks department was nearly as large as the actual production wing of the factory! Cleaning house was in order. And as I stated before it wasn't like the Ferraris were dogs, just five seasons before Schumacher' very first test in one Prost had brought the Scuderia to within one race of a championship.

When you think about it Schumacher was very lucky because Ferrari was his only option as far a team that could bring him five championships. Benetton weren't going to reign supreme forever, even back to back seasons was quiet a streak for them. Williams were never going to pay him, or any other for that matter, what McLaren and Ferrari were willing to. Senna only went there because they happened to have the best car and he thought Renault could deliver many years of future victories. And a move to McLaren by Scumacher would have required facing Mika head to head. As you might recall Mika in one of his very first McLaren testing sessions at Estoril had actually beaten Senna's best time... Albeit by the razor thinnest of margins and he never managed to do it again but the point was made. massive potential. Schumacher wasn't going near that guy in the same car. Dennis would have had to have either traded him or dropped him to get Schumacher to agree. Ferrari was simultaneously the only option and the best one for him and Brawn. Well maybe just Schumacher, technical directors can never make Michael Schumacher driver money.

gums

Can't argue with your insights, perfect, as you're obviously quite the ardent follower (not to mention nearly 15,000 posts!), but also don't forget that Schu developed the car solely to his liking, much as he did at Benetton, and a car setup as he likes is nearly undriveable to most others.
Not to be misread that I like the guy, or his tactics, but just sayin'.

DB_NC_95C2

I was in no way whatsoever defending Prost or Senna's banzai manouvres. In all those cases in Japan I could only shake my head in disgust, it's no wonder that Spoonface decided that he as well had to be a puntmeister to win. When Senna later admitted that taking out Prost's Ferrari was a premeditated move, I thought they should ban him for life. Because the pole position was on the wrong side of the track ? Come on....

The only driver in my humble opinion that ever stood up to Senna was Nigel.

gums

Senna was clearly being victimized. The rules were clear that the pole sitter gets lane choice. And don't forget the year before, which resulted in the rewriting of the rules to rejoin the circuit, but only after costing him the WDC.
Frustrations and emotions on such a dangerous stage can cost lives (Villeneuve comes to mind).

multi21

People see what they want to see. All your points are clouded in half truths. It's ironic that in previous posts you suggest that Prost always had a little extra before pitting and could bang out a few laps that were faster than previous. Schumacher made a living of that, winning at the slowest pace possible and when asked by Brawn to go .4 seconds faster before pitting, he did so on command. MS also was clocked at having the fastest in and out laps year in and year out giving evidence of his ability to push on cold or worn tires. His attention to detail especially in the examination of others cars in parc ferme and the tolerance gaps in his own cars are legendary. In the era of testing, there was perhaps no better at developing an F1 car.

Certain drivers have an abiliity to bring a car home with minimal wear. As you mentioned Clark had that as did MS. Some have to be taught. Kimi was notorious for being hard on equipment with McLaren and started his career at Ferrari the same way. It's not lost on me that Schmacher's race engineer was also the race engineer for Kimi during his first year at Ferrari and imparted his experience with MS to Kimi to the point that Kimi's DNF rate went way down in the 2nd half of the year and contributed to his lone WDC.

As it relates to qualifying, there are many factors that contribute to the success rate least of which is qualfying pace vs. race pace. Each car has it's strengths and weaknesses and some cars do not get their tires up to temp as quickly as others. Other factors that determine qualifying pace, especially in the era of fuel stops is starting fuel load. This goes hand in hand with the type of track you are racing on. Strategy on qualifying in Monaco is going to be the polar opposite at Spa or Monza where overtaking is easier than at the Principality and an emphasis on pole is more than race pace. The fact that Schumacher has more wins than others at these tracks gives evidence to the fact that he could qualify on pole or off pole and still produce the same result; race wins which is the goal in the first place.

Finally, to say that MS going to Ferrari was his only option for 5 titles is blantantly obsured on face value. He was a 2 time WDC with a mid level team. Ferrari had not won a title since the 1970s. He had no idea he would win 5 let alone 1. Read any of the books from that era and all describe that it was a huge gamble to go to Ferrari. The only thing that could be guaranteed was a big budget, but nothing else. MS was surrounded by great people like Todt, Brawn, Burne, etc. but he put enormous pressure on himself to win that first title. After the first, there wasn't all the previous pressure to win for Ferrari which actually made it easier as MS relaxed, he actually produced more.

And as for teammates, the rules are written in such a way that it is illogical to not have a clear #1 driver. Ferrari has done this forever; before Schumacher, during Schumacher and certainly after Schumacher as we see today with Alonso and Massa. In fact, playing to this rule is so engrained with Ferrari team principals that you will never seen Vettel and Alonso as teammates at Ferrari even if Vettel signed in the near future. It just makes no sense, as the rules are written to have two teammates fighting over the same points to the detrement of the team. More so than any other team on grid, Ferrari is about Ferrari. Driver's come and go and even the great ones, such as Schumacher, are expendable, but the team will always be there.

perfectlap

Premeditated sounds almost like it was a secret. He made it very clear beforehand that he had no intention of lifting before the first turn. They didn't strip him of points or ban him because that would only have reminded the world of why Senna was on the no-grip side of the track despite being on the pole. Frech helping the French. The whole point of the pole position exercise is to have the best possible start. Not to mention the ruling on Prost's deliberate crash the year before was almost comical in being so balatantly wrong. To physcially stop Senna from walking up the stairs to the podium so he could claim the first place trophy even after Prost's stunt had backfired was an outrage.

The thing that amazes me about Senna not lifting was that he was not somoene who didn't say something he didn't intend to do. Prost more than anyone knew that. Particularly in the context of what happened the year before. This was like a double whammy. They screwed him the year before and now they were trying to screw him again. Senna had Prost exactly where he wanted him. If Prost tested Senna by not backing off the first corner, he instantly loses the title (and possibly his life). Had Prost simply concended the corner he still had an even chance at beating Senna during the race. And what a race it would have been. It would have been perhaps Prost's greatest win ever. It's almost as if Prost thought there was some other insanely pissed off Senna on the starting grid than the one he knew so well. If there was ever a moment for the cooler-headed, more experienced hand to have picked the easier path to victory this was it.

gums

haha! Have to agree with that, Perfect, we were certainly robbed of what could have been an epic battle. The only thing I've been wondering over the years is why Senna chose to shunt him at such a high speed and dangerous corner?. He could easily have done it at a slower point on the circuit.

perfectlap

1. Schumacher only had to drive the Brawn Ferrari competently and it was going to finish the race with minimal drama. He didn't have to be anything near a Jim Clark to preserve it. Sure a destructive driver would have probably caused more failures but even then it still would have been fewer mechanical DNF's than the second best team could muster. Look how many times Rubens finished a country mile ahead of third place in title when he was the #2 Ferrari driver with a far less reliable car. If Rubens was the #1 driver he would have have had the car within low single digit DNF% as well. No Jim Clark skills necessary from either.

2. There are three top teams for Schumacher to move to: Williams. Ferrari. McLaren. Williams weren't paying. And Mika wasn't leaving McLaren. So remind me again what other team had better funding? That payed more? What other team already had a race-winning car? Even if you strip away the entire Ferrari legend that lures so many other drivers to drive for them, it was still the only option that was not an EVEN BIGGER gamble. Ferrari was the only option that had enitre nation behind it. This was the biggest no-brainer in team switching ever. If he went left there was wayyy less money for him. If he went right Mika was standing there.

3. I don't think you understand that in F1 the teams fight over two titles every year. Constructors as well as drivers title. Having the two best drivers possible creates the best oppourtunity for the factory to say they provided the best car.
Otherwise we would have 1 car per team. Ferrari have had #1 drivers in the past but they fought for that slot once on the team (i.e. Villeneuve - Sheckter). And in doing so the drivers scored the maximum number of points and sealed the constructors title. the team were the direct beneficiaries of each driver stepping up their game to be #1. With Schumacher at Benetton and Ferrari we had something quiet different, it was instead the selection of #2 drivers who were already all but certain to be slower than the current #1 driver. The role of the #2 driver was to pull over and play boot-licker... written into their conract which even now Barichello can't speak of. And historically I'm not sure your story is right, Enzo Ferrari only care about putting everything into his engines and cars, care-taking and protecting a driver from a fast team mate is not their history.

perfectlap

I don't think the point was to punt Prost out of the race so much as it was to make clear that this particular corner was the whole point of what Senna believed to be race fixing.
If Senna had punted Prost late in the race, like Prost had tried to do the year before, it would have looked like a desperation tactic. The kind we saw by Schumache in Jerez. And By the way Senna took off his gloves and glared back at Prost after the crash it was pretty obvious that he was saying "didn't think I would blow up your whole plan with Balestre? well guess what? I just won the title". Pretty twisted but tactically pretty illogical of Prost to press the issue on a pedal to the metal corner. He was the one that would lose everything if they both shunted since Senna was ahead on points going into the final race.

gums

^^interesting insight, likely on target too^^

DB_NC_95C2

how many people forget that Osamu Goto also went to Ferrari to join the Italian,German,Japan Axis of Evil

Honda had left the sport and their #1 engine guru went to Maranello