SoClose

Just worked 30 hrs, maybe not the right time to respond, but here goes:
Maybe if you had completed more than one race with PCA over the past 3 years you would appreciate where some of us are coming from. There has always been discussion about the GT cars with the Cup cars, but in the past few years this has become a growing concern. The comments about having a 4th run group were in two posts out of about 30 in this thread- certainly not what I would consider a major topic of discussion. As well, those two comments came from Cup car drivers- both of which are brutally fast, clean and professional, both on and off the track, and frankly only see GT cars on the track as they're lapping us.
The discussion has centered around moving the GT guys to another run group, or less likely a split start.
My experience is that for years, the GT cars mostly ran in their own 'neighborhood' on the track, no matter who was out there, with minimal incidents. Drivers that have developed and driven their cars for 5,10, 15 plus years, and know them well, and drive them close to their potential. With the development of the 'big dollar motors' these cars are moving into the thick of the Cup car pack at long tracks, surrounded by drivers that are probably not running near to the performance potential of their cars, and most likely don't understand how a GT car performs differently, or where they may be side by side, which leads to incidents. And I don't intend to imply that it is always the Cup car's fault.
I have mixed feelings about running in a different group or a split start- I go to the track to race wheel to wheel, and love the Sebring (and WG and RdAmerica) events because of the turnout. Not interested in a parade or DE type race.
Some of the driving at Rd America last year was deplorable. Discussions were held with the stewards, video was shown. They are aware of these growing issues, and as more well developed GT cars appear, I would expect this trend to continue- hence the reason for this thread.

Eifeler

Interested to see if any changes are made. Love Sebring but based on the recent carnage, frequent yellows, etc. I wasn't planning on running at the PCA event in 2013 (GT4R/S car).

John H

Please let me know the number of races I need to complete over what period of time to be entitled to express an opinion? I apologize for inadvertently crossing a boundary by posting in this thread.

KaiB

John, I believe you missed the implication here.

The Cup crowd has grown large recently (let's say within the last three years); although the guys at the pointy end are using their cars and driving very well, there is a certain contingent towards the rear of the pack (right where the GT cars fit if they're driven well) which may or may not be as "trustworthy" at that speed, under those conditions.

I don't care to speculate the reason for this, but know it to be true. OTOH, at the pointy end of the Spec996 crowd, where the GT cars will play for a while, or need to pass, one finds experienced, very capable drivers.

flatsics

For the record:
Jon H. 3 races with PCA in 2012
SoClose 3 races with PCA in 2012


But that is not the point of this discussion.

What you guys really should be talking about is "the why".

Why do we still have DE groups at the big races?
Why is it so easy to get a PCA race license?
Why is it safety compliance is the only thing checked at initial "log book" tech.
Why do run groups get posted so late and rarely make a lot of sense?
When will we stop adding specialty classes that are watering down the run groups?
Why do Cup cars get a separate podium celebration and special gifts/rewards?
Why are there no tire/other contingencies in PCA racing?

I have been racing with PCA since 2004 and obviously I like the program.
I think there are a lot of really good people in PCA.
I really like the enforcement of the 13/13 rule and that is where PCA separates itself for me from other sanctioning bodies.

analogmike

I agree. The clubs claim to need the money from the DE participants. If that's so, charge us in GTC and GTA classes an extra grand entry fee- it's in the noise of running these cars and won't be noticed.

Then maybe we can get some clear track time. I got too frustrated the last two years at Sebring- everyone rushing for fast laps on the first lap because we knew there might not be a second lap, the self-fulfilling prophecy causing crashing. One year my out lap was my qualifying time!!! Neither year was worth the $10K+ expense or even more costly 4 days away from work for me.

But I still want to go to Sebring for some reason

fleadh

I want to go to Sebring too, anyone need a codriver or want to rent some time in their Cup to me?

I promise not interfere with any GT cars.... :-)

-mike

danielyonker

Well, this thread has evolved the way I hoped it would, and some people have touched on what I consider the root of the problem. PCA rules allow for a person with little or no talent to buy a very fast, expensive car, which is then allowed to participate in races against considerably slower cars, often with drivers who posses more talent, or at least more seat time. The juxtaposition of these two types of cars/drivers in a race situation has proved to be dangerous and resulted in a less than desirable racing environment, at least for the drivers of the slower cars. The first test and tune session at Sebring last year, along with a couple sessions at WGI this past year, demonstrates this perfectly. IMHO, it is just a matter of time before something bad happens, but perhaps that is just the nature of racing.

It seems there should be more regulation in the issuance of a race license, or otherwise some type of "ladder" that a driver must climb in order to demonstrate his/her talent. I can tell you that I have seen many an "x" on the back of a cup car, which is always cause for concern. My suspicion is that different PCA regions are more relaxed in the way they move people up through the ranks and issue provisional licenses, which could certainly be a part of the problem.

I, for one, owned a 997 when I ran my first DE in 2007. I promptly sold it and bought a 1984 911, which over the years I transformed into a front running GT4s car. During this time, before getting my license, I did upwards of 80 DE days all over the east coast, and I completed NASA and SCCA driving schools (in a miata) to secure provisional licenses. I did this for two reasons: first, I wanted to learn how to drive a car, fast, without PS, PB, traction control, etc., and second, I realized there was no substitute for seat time, period. Since then I have run at least 8 races a season, combined PCA/NASA/SCCA. I am fortunate in that I could afford the time to devote to becoming a better driver, and I recognize that many may not be able to do this. However, there must be better controls in place to keep relatively inexperienced, unsafe drivers out of these wickedly fast cars. As the old adage goes, money can't buy talent.

I like the intent of the 13/13 rule and I think it goes a long ways towards making events safer. Also, surprisingly, the points system has made many drivers think twice about doing something stupid on track, heaven forbid they should jeopardize their points standing. I don't know that there are any easy solutions to this issue, but is certainly worth more discussion and consideration by PCA national.

I'm looking forward to a fun and safe 2013 driving season. Thanks for everyones input on this thread.

paradisenb

I understand the request for a separate run group and think it is a good idea. Speed differentials are significant, especially compared to the new Cups. Not to mention the shear size of the cars. Cups look to be 50% larger cars.
The big races no longer need the DE groups to fill the time slots or pay for the track.
The late posting of the run groups and schedule?? I can't understand this. Is there no history to guide from year to year?
Cups cars getting separate podiums? Why? Is PCA Club Racing a Promotional arm of PCNA?
Why is the event poster show only cups cars. Is Porsche Club Racing not for and about all of us?
Tire contingencies should be pretty easy to come by when 95% of the participants are running Hoosiers-Spec-ed Michelin's or Toyos.

MUSSBERGER

I remember that. I think I heard something like....it was the car that was making him quick. Hmmm....Guess not.

sbelles

Regions don't issue licenses. National relies on the CIs in in the regions for a recommendation to issue a provisional license but I think that most of the people in that role take it pretty seriously. Of course they gave me one so I could be wrong.

FrankyV

The CIs in Potomac went all hard *** on me and refused to write a letter despite my hundreds of DE days and freshly minted National Instructor card. The reason- neither instructor had given me a check out ride and I wanted to do my first race before there was another opportunity to do the ride.

So it was difficult to get my provisional license with PCA and I understand that many get a NASA license first to ease the way.

coryf

I understand adding a DE group or 2 to the small races to fill the field but it sure would be nice to have 2 more race groups. Not looking forward to 1-2 open laps a session.

Doug007

Sounds like there is a car speed differential issue here, not a driver talent differential issue. In every level of racing (even F1!) there are going to be drivers at a different skill levels on the race track with you.

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/186251/...lost_lead.html

bobt993

Doug,

Skill level is not the problem when your comparing "like cars". A superior car driven at say 7/10th setting similar lap times to a hustled lower performing car (different class). You end up with low cars stacked up in the corners and low percentage pass attempts. It happens for the entire race and usually brings out some double yellows.