Advice on how to progress from beginner to racer
05-25-2012, 09:57 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Advice on how to progress from beginner to racer
Perhaps this can be a sticky thread?
Many of you started with little to no experience and finally got their dream car and worked through the ranks of AutoX, DE's and Driving Schools to become Instructors, Advanced Drivers, and Racers.
I would like to make a thread for those that would like to ask questions on how to progress to higher levels of driving and allow those of you that have already done so to share advice and experience.
Many of you started with little to no experience and finally got their dream car and worked through the ranks of AutoX, DE's and Driving Schools to become Instructors, Advanced Drivers, and Racers.
I would like to make a thread for those that would like to ask questions on how to progress to higher levels of driving and allow those of you that have already done so to share advice and experience.
05-25-2012, 10:09 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
Get as many people as possible in yoru right seat along the way. Get as many inpuuts as possible. There are always multipls ways around most tracks, and the sooner you can start "seeing" thhem and trying them, the faster you will advance, safely.
05-25-2012, 12:17 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
I have been fortunate enough to drive and race all kinds of stuff from open wheelers at Skippy, Spec Miata's, really fast Porsches and some really slow Porsches, etc. All have taught me something.
Also, never shy away from racing or driving in the rain. It is the most humbling and educational experience I have ever had behind wheel.
Also, never shy away from racing or driving in the rain. It is the most humbling and educational experience I have ever had behind wheel.
05-25-2012, 12:29 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Although I appreciate the sense of humor, I intended this to be a serious thread. Being a good driver doesn't make one a good instructor. Obviously the more you drive the better, but I think all of us will hit plateau's without a modification (more instruction, school, etc).
I have no idea how to qualify as an instructor (w/PCA for example) and talking with people that have done it is easier than trying to figure it out on your own.
I have no idea how to qualify as an instructor (w/PCA for example) and talking with people that have done it is easier than trying to figure it out on your own.
05-25-2012, 12:49 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Seat time alone won't do it, and neither will money.
It requires quality usage of both, if you want to be competitive above the club level.
-mike
It requires quality usage of both, if you want to be competitive above the club level.
-mike
05-25-2012, 01:05 PM
#7
the "ask the coach" sticky thread is superb, if that's the kind of advice you're looking for.
if you're trying to develop your own personal ladder system, that would be a different question. determined largely by your own goals and budget, but age, experience, fitness, etc will also factor in.
if you're trying to develop your own personal ladder system, that would be a different question. determined largely by your own goals and budget, but age, experience, fitness, etc will also factor in.
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05-25-2012, 01:06 PM
#8
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Gather quality information (as opposed to supposition and the anecdotal kind), make a plan that includes professional instruction (SBRS, Bondurant, PSDS, BMWPDS, Bertil Roos, Jim Russell (SimRaceway) EARLY on and execute!
It's fun. You will make wrong turns and hit numerous plateaus, but there are resources out there, particularly depending on your budget, that will steepen the learning curve dramatically. Trust your gut. Take small bites. Enjoy yourself.
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
05-25-2012, 01:49 PM
#9
Glad to see you start this separate thread Cannon.
What are your primary goals? To become an instructor? What is it about being an instructor that most intrigues you? Personally, I became an instructor way-back-when in my DE pre-race days because there were a couple of extra track days for instructor training, there was usually an instructor-only group, with faster drivers and less stringent passing rules (read I was held up a lot less), and it let me see a lot of driving techniques, many of which I could help improve in other drivers. And it was fun sitting in the right seat (and sometimes the left seat) of a lot of cool cars.
I stopped being an instructor because too many people scared the heck out of me, and it stopped being fun. Shortly thereafter I went racing, which let me get all the high-quality track time I wanted. The way I put it is that the perfect DE lap - nobody to pass in the corners, track all by yourself to drive exactly the line you want, is the most boring race lap you'll ever do!
As I said in the other thread, have a goal and a plan every time you go on track. Is it to be smoother in turn 1? Is it to see if you can push your braking point half a cone into turn 3? Is it to do the entire session without losing concentration and getting distracted?
I'm a data guy. The firstmod I made to my first race car (which had already been built) was to put a data system into it, so that I'd get not only laptimes while on course, but have full track mapping with rpm, speed, gear (calculated from speed and rpm), lateral and longitudinal g (I actually only had a lateral G sensor, but did a math calc to calculate longitidunal G from speed (rate of change)). My second mod was a camera, at the time a consumer miniDV camera. I'd then study the data and video religously, esp. in evenings at the track. Sometimes I'd pick up time 'accidentally' - I'd make what I believed to be a mistake in a particular corner, but it turned out to be an improvement! I'd never have known without the data.
Much of this will be difficult without a dedicated car, or at least one that is awfully compromised as a daily driver :-) I'm super big on safety, I've had a fuel cell in all my cars (even though rules didn't always require it), I got my HANS in 2000 directly from Jim Downing, etc. I think it's hard to drive aggressively and safely without a full race seat and harness, cage, fire system, etc. I just wouldn't be comfortable pushing the car without those things. There are tracks (Pacific Raceways, formerly Seattle International Raceway) where I've never come close to a 10/10ths lap as it's an inherently unsafe track so I need to leave an extra margin in most of the corners.
All that said, 100% of this can be done with a low-budget car. I'd very strongly recommend a spec car, that a lot of people near you are running. Can be spec 944, spec 911, spec Miata (I can't believe I said that, please use a stock muffler to save the planet's hearing), etc. You'll have people faster than you, and people slower than you, so you'll learn and have a lot of fun every single weekend.
I see people start off with a Cup Car as their first race car, because they want a fast, safe car, and they can afford it. I think it's MUCH harder to learn in such a car, as the limits are so high, and it's learning how to handle the car at the limits, both by yourself and in traffic, that are necessary.
This is another reason why stuttgart's advice about driving in the rain is so INCREDIBLY valuable. Rain lowers the limits, but also (IMHO) makes them more managable, as the friction curve from static to dynamic friction on the tires is less steep (ie. they break away in a much more forgiving way when you exceed the limits). I never ever ever turn down the opportunity to drive in the wet. You can really play with the car, as long as you're smooth, you can get loose and catch it all over the place, and that will make you a LOT more comfortable in being able to catch it if it gets loose in the dry. Or maybe you WANT it to be a little loose, I personally like a little oversteer so I can rotate the back end of the car under trail braking.
The Pirelli Cup folks will remember me begging the officials at Miller last year to let me out to qualify in the snow (it was melting on track, so it was just a wet track), and to let me on track at Vegas in the rain, both times I was the only car that had any desire to go out, and the workers were happy being warm and dry (as nobody had gone out in the previous session).
What are your primary goals? To become an instructor? What is it about being an instructor that most intrigues you? Personally, I became an instructor way-back-when in my DE pre-race days because there were a couple of extra track days for instructor training, there was usually an instructor-only group, with faster drivers and less stringent passing rules (read I was held up a lot less), and it let me see a lot of driving techniques, many of which I could help improve in other drivers. And it was fun sitting in the right seat (and sometimes the left seat) of a lot of cool cars.
I stopped being an instructor because too many people scared the heck out of me, and it stopped being fun. Shortly thereafter I went racing, which let me get all the high-quality track time I wanted. The way I put it is that the perfect DE lap - nobody to pass in the corners, track all by yourself to drive exactly the line you want, is the most boring race lap you'll ever do!
As I said in the other thread, have a goal and a plan every time you go on track. Is it to be smoother in turn 1? Is it to see if you can push your braking point half a cone into turn 3? Is it to do the entire session without losing concentration and getting distracted?
I'm a data guy. The firstmod I made to my first race car (which had already been built) was to put a data system into it, so that I'd get not only laptimes while on course, but have full track mapping with rpm, speed, gear (calculated from speed and rpm), lateral and longitudinal g (I actually only had a lateral G sensor, but did a math calc to calculate longitidunal G from speed (rate of change)). My second mod was a camera, at the time a consumer miniDV camera. I'd then study the data and video religously, esp. in evenings at the track. Sometimes I'd pick up time 'accidentally' - I'd make what I believed to be a mistake in a particular corner, but it turned out to be an improvement! I'd never have known without the data.
Much of this will be difficult without a dedicated car, or at least one that is awfully compromised as a daily driver :-) I'm super big on safety, I've had a fuel cell in all my cars (even though rules didn't always require it), I got my HANS in 2000 directly from Jim Downing, etc. I think it's hard to drive aggressively and safely without a full race seat and harness, cage, fire system, etc. I just wouldn't be comfortable pushing the car without those things. There are tracks (Pacific Raceways, formerly Seattle International Raceway) where I've never come close to a 10/10ths lap as it's an inherently unsafe track so I need to leave an extra margin in most of the corners.
All that said, 100% of this can be done with a low-budget car. I'd very strongly recommend a spec car, that a lot of people near you are running. Can be spec 944, spec 911, spec Miata (I can't believe I said that, please use a stock muffler to save the planet's hearing), etc. You'll have people faster than you, and people slower than you, so you'll learn and have a lot of fun every single weekend.
I see people start off with a Cup Car as their first race car, because they want a fast, safe car, and they can afford it. I think it's MUCH harder to learn in such a car, as the limits are so high, and it's learning how to handle the car at the limits, both by yourself and in traffic, that are necessary.
This is another reason why stuttgart's advice about driving in the rain is so INCREDIBLY valuable. Rain lowers the limits, but also (IMHO) makes them more managable, as the friction curve from static to dynamic friction on the tires is less steep (ie. they break away in a much more forgiving way when you exceed the limits). I never ever ever turn down the opportunity to drive in the wet. You can really play with the car, as long as you're smooth, you can get loose and catch it all over the place, and that will make you a LOT more comfortable in being able to catch it if it gets loose in the dry. Or maybe you WANT it to be a little loose, I personally like a little oversteer so I can rotate the back end of the car under trail braking.
The Pirelli Cup folks will remember me begging the officials at Miller last year to let me out to qualify in the snow (it was melting on track, so it was just a wet track), and to let me on track at Vegas in the rain, both times I was the only car that had any desire to go out, and the workers were happy being warm and dry (as nobody had gone out in the previous session).
05-25-2012, 02:44 PM
#10
One more thing that I touched on in the other thread, but will repeat here so folks don't need to find it :-)
I believe that a strong desire for continuous self-improvement is a key requirement. I've set a number of track records, and been on pole a lot of times, but I've NEVER had a perfect lap. There's always one corner (or more likely three or four) that I KNOW I could do faster, my intellectual brain tells me so, but my feet and hands (controlled by the brain responsible for self-preservation :-)) just don't respond :-)
I think my real key has been this desire to improve. That's what gets me to drive in series with strong competition. I stopped running local events because I wasn't being pushed consistently. Winning is great, but winning without having to work my butt off the entire weekend to earn it, just isn't satisfying to me.
I'm not driving the local Memorial Day double weekend, because I lapped the field last year, and though it's fun winning in front of my home crowd, it's not worth the effort as I won't learn much. It's also a dangerous track (IMHO) with a lot of mixed cars on track, and I didn't enjoy having to go two wheels into the grass at 130mph because a group of Miatas decided to pop out three wide on entry to a corner, when I was two car lengths back and closing at 40+mph. When I talked to the driver who I had to go off-track to avoid, his reply was "you're no faster than us through the corners, you can just wait until we go up the hill after turn 6 to pass us". What?!?? You're in a Miata on street tires, I've got slicks and downforce and a proper race suspension, and I'm not faster in the corners? That's why I passed you on the outside of 5A the LAST time I lapped you? :-) He also didn't seem to get the concept of 'closing speed', and that a car doing 130 can't instantaneously slow down 40mph, and that he was lucky his rear bumper didn't end up going through his spine. Ok, sorry, I'll calm down now. I guess I could learn something if I ran the weekend, high speed avoidance techniques of drivers who clearly don't have a well-expressed self-preservation gene :-)
I believe that a strong desire for continuous self-improvement is a key requirement. I've set a number of track records, and been on pole a lot of times, but I've NEVER had a perfect lap. There's always one corner (or more likely three or four) that I KNOW I could do faster, my intellectual brain tells me so, but my feet and hands (controlled by the brain responsible for self-preservation :-)) just don't respond :-)
I think my real key has been this desire to improve. That's what gets me to drive in series with strong competition. I stopped running local events because I wasn't being pushed consistently. Winning is great, but winning without having to work my butt off the entire weekend to earn it, just isn't satisfying to me.
I'm not driving the local Memorial Day double weekend, because I lapped the field last year, and though it's fun winning in front of my home crowd, it's not worth the effort as I won't learn much. It's also a dangerous track (IMHO) with a lot of mixed cars on track, and I didn't enjoy having to go two wheels into the grass at 130mph because a group of Miatas decided to pop out three wide on entry to a corner, when I was two car lengths back and closing at 40+mph. When I talked to the driver who I had to go off-track to avoid, his reply was "you're no faster than us through the corners, you can just wait until we go up the hill after turn 6 to pass us". What?!?? You're in a Miata on street tires, I've got slicks and downforce and a proper race suspension, and I'm not faster in the corners? That's why I passed you on the outside of 5A the LAST time I lapped you? :-) He also didn't seem to get the concept of 'closing speed', and that a car doing 130 can't instantaneously slow down 40mph, and that he was lucky his rear bumper didn't end up going through his spine. Ok, sorry, I'll calm down now. I guess I could learn something if I ran the weekend, high speed avoidance techniques of drivers who clearly don't have a well-expressed self-preservation gene :-)
05-25-2012, 09:24 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
No time at all. Read this - https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...-to-black.html .. then in a couple years when you are done come back.
Paolo is racing and is reasonably competitive in his class. You may want to start tanning heavily as you will need leather skin..
Paolo is racing and is reasonably competitive in his class. You may want to start tanning heavily as you will need leather skin..
05-25-2012, 09:28 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
the "ask the coach" sticky thread is superb, if that's the kind of advice you're looking for.
if you're trying to develop your own personal ladder system, that would be a different question. determined largely by your own goals and budget, but age, experience, fitness, etc will also factor in.
if you're trying to develop your own personal ladder system, that would be a different question. determined largely by your own goals and budget, but age, experience, fitness, etc will also factor in.
05-25-2012, 09:36 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
05-25-2012, 09:41 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
I have found that driving in the rain, along with quality instructors, and some seat time in the right seat watching some amazing drivers has really helped a lot in my transition from beginner to instructor. Talk to as many instructors as you can, and work with as many as you can. Some will help, some will not. Be prepared to be humbled. Learn from it.
05-25-2012, 09:43 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
I modulate with the requirement of my class Dave, but Mr. Chicken is still on my menu if it doesn't rain (then Tiki has my undivided attention) but of course alcohol, old age, and lack of finances come into play. Did you and your guy ever get that car running right at the Glen?