Advice on how to progress from beginner to racer
05-28-2012, 04:54 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
i tell you what.. stop reading forums.
i can`t agree more on 'free passing' groups. PCA DEs are, well, have certain mentality, mostly aimed to reduce litigation from those who are stupid enough to smack their brand new GT3s into wall.
on the other side of the spear is the fact that as you go into open passing and other 'aggressive' events you will start increasing your own level of risk so you got to accept that.
schools like 'skip barber' are invaluable in this aspect as you will get a racing license that will allow you to attend open track days, you will gain experience on a rented vehicle and, all in all, it is a good education.
but it costs a lot. if you build a cheap race car and start racing with proper organization - miata club, NASA, SCCA, eventually you will gain same level of experience.
but, overall, to like 'PCA DE game' - you need to like it as a social event, and like it very much indeed.
i can`t agree more on 'free passing' groups. PCA DEs are, well, have certain mentality, mostly aimed to reduce litigation from those who are stupid enough to smack their brand new GT3s into wall.
on the other side of the spear is the fact that as you go into open passing and other 'aggressive' events you will start increasing your own level of risk so you got to accept that.
schools like 'skip barber' are invaluable in this aspect as you will get a racing license that will allow you to attend open track days, you will gain experience on a rented vehicle and, all in all, it is a good education.
but it costs a lot. if you build a cheap race car and start racing with proper organization - miata club, NASA, SCCA, eventually you will gain same level of experience.
but, overall, to like 'PCA DE game' - you need to like it as a social event, and like it very much indeed.
05-28-2012, 05:57 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
To say a driver developing their skill level is wasting their time at a PCA DE is BS. Paul, I am not sure what group you run with, but I have seen some real talented racers give time at DE's and provide valuable input to a student that, in turn, listens to the instructor. Hell, our program has an ex Penske Engineer, several top level racers, and on occasion a Grand Am driver show up to assist and give classroom talks. You get out of it what you put in and as Scott described be a "student of the sport" and always willing to learn.
Peter, great story about your license. I saw one you would get a chuckle out of. A local club member who has a pretty famous shop has his PCA diploma on the office wall from "way back". The acting Chief Instructor who graduated him was Phil Hill.
Use every resource you have and hire a coach when your skill level exceeds the resources available at the instructor level. Race schools are a plus also, but track time and club level racing will get you experience. Also consider time trials for learning to run fast under pressure when it really counts.
Peter, great story about your license. I saw one you would get a chuckle out of. A local club member who has a pretty famous shop has his PCA diploma on the office wall from "way back". The acting Chief Instructor who graduated him was Phil Hill.
Use every resource you have and hire a coach when your skill level exceeds the resources available at the instructor level. Race schools are a plus also, but track time and club level racing will get you experience. Also consider time trials for learning to run fast under pressure when it really counts.
05-28-2012, 06:13 PM
#48
If you are registered for the Peachstate DE at Road Atlanta next weekend come to the tent at the bottom of the down ramp and ask for Chris or Hal. We'll be happy to walk you through what you need to do. Both of us are Instructors and Club racers. We've been there and done that. Be happy to answer any questions you might have.
05-28-2012, 07:41 PM
#49
I completely agree with you. The PCA DE path was not the right one for me and my immediate goals. But that doesn't mean that I couldn't have developed the essential driving skills required for racing by progressing through the PCA DE program.
This is especially true in my region (Golden Gate Region). GGR has many excellent instructors many of whom do have racing experience. Most of the racers I will race with in the PRC progressed through the GGR DE and Time Trial series to racing.
I am 50 years old now. I became a "student of racing" way back in 1978 when my mom bought a 911SC, joined the POC, and went to her first autocross. That's when I first read "Driving in Competition" by Alan Johnson. After reading that book, I was able to watch races and understand what the drivers were doing and why they were doing it.
I rode dirt bikes in the desert as kid (with Steve McQueen no less), spent unreasonable amounts of gas money at the Malibu Grand Prix, autocrossed the aforementioned 911SC for many years, and road raced motorcycles for many years after that. I also was an autocross instructor and motorcycle road racing instructor. Instructing caused me to really understand what I was doing out on the course and to learn how to explain it in many different ways.
My point wasn't that the PCA events were not worthwhile. It was that I did not want or need to take the time required to progress to racing using that path. People should take the path appropriate to their situation and goals.
Scott
05-28-2012, 08:18 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Scott,
My point was not really directed towards you. Keep in mind, your skill set is very different than the typical driver wanting to progress to racing. You already have a great deal of experience racing on two wheels and that does make a huge difference on who can help you refine the move to cars. DE instructors have a primary task to keep drivers safe on the track and learn techniques to keep them safe. At that point, the instructor has completed his/her primary responsibilities. If the student is a good learner and showing ability, a good instructor will help them move a bit out of their comfort zone and advance further. Racing is not what DE instructor are supposed to be teaching. On occasion, I have had a CI ask me to work with a solo student who has requested a CI endorsement to start club racing and that becomes much more of a "racing school" format.
Not knowing the OP's driving level, I think he should keep all options on the table. If he has mastered car control and is able to run laps in a car that are 2 secs or less off pace for his class then a DE program will not offer him much more progression. If he is somewhat in between then a DE instructor that races may be a good mentor for him. PCA does not have a true "bridge" for a DE driver to transition to racing. The rookie race weekend is live on racing with some practice starts. A bit overwhelming for most new racers.
It would be great if PCA could somehow add back in the time trial format to a select level group during a DE weekend.
My point was not really directed towards you. Keep in mind, your skill set is very different than the typical driver wanting to progress to racing. You already have a great deal of experience racing on two wheels and that does make a huge difference on who can help you refine the move to cars. DE instructors have a primary task to keep drivers safe on the track and learn techniques to keep them safe. At that point, the instructor has completed his/her primary responsibilities. If the student is a good learner and showing ability, a good instructor will help them move a bit out of their comfort zone and advance further. Racing is not what DE instructor are supposed to be teaching. On occasion, I have had a CI ask me to work with a solo student who has requested a CI endorsement to start club racing and that becomes much more of a "racing school" format.
Not knowing the OP's driving level, I think he should keep all options on the table. If he has mastered car control and is able to run laps in a car that are 2 secs or less off pace for his class then a DE program will not offer him much more progression. If he is somewhat in between then a DE instructor that races may be a good mentor for him. PCA does not have a true "bridge" for a DE driver to transition to racing. The rookie race weekend is live on racing with some practice starts. A bit overwhelming for most new racers.
It would be great if PCA could somehow add back in the time trial format to a select level group during a DE weekend.
05-28-2012, 08:32 PM
#51
Bob,
Yes, I knew your post was not directed at me. I guess I should have made that clear. I just wanted to say that I understood and agreed with what you had to say and not so much with some aspects of what Paul had to say.
My point all along has been that there is no one right path to take if your goal is to go racing. It depends greatly on the experiences of the individual. But, there is really only one path to take if your goal is to become a PCA Certified Instructor.
Scott
Yes, I knew your post was not directed at me. I guess I should have made that clear. I just wanted to say that I understood and agreed with what you had to say and not so much with some aspects of what Paul had to say.
My point all along has been that there is no one right path to take if your goal is to go racing. It depends greatly on the experiences of the individual. But, there is really only one path to take if your goal is to become a PCA Certified Instructor.
Scott
05-28-2012, 09:40 PM
#54
Race Director
Great ?????
All of us have asked and answered the same ??? It appears the "usual" path is you own a sports car (Porsches are common around these parts)....& a friend convinces you to attend your 1st Driver Education event (mine was PCA) in your pure street Porsche.....then you quickly get hooked.....
You get obsessed with going faster....so you mod your street car....which makes it WORSE and WORSE to drive on the street......chances are your improving lap times are due to improved driving vs the mods....then you drive a friends true "race" car and figure out its time to do that.... Time for a truck and trailer + real race car.....
Then you need to figure out which local race class best suits your goals and budget....there IS a reason why spec miata and spec E30 are SO popular.....lots of fun with large groups and for a "reasonable" budget....
One thing I learned the hard way is you will encounter "checkbook racers"....who buy speed & don't have the driving ability to go with it....I have about ZERO chance of beating anyone with my ultra thin checkbook....but I take great pride in passing those fancy rides in my budget racer!!!!
All of us have asked and answered the same ??? It appears the "usual" path is you own a sports car (Porsches are common around these parts)....& a friend convinces you to attend your 1st Driver Education event (mine was PCA) in your pure street Porsche.....then you quickly get hooked.....
You get obsessed with going faster....so you mod your street car....which makes it WORSE and WORSE to drive on the street......chances are your improving lap times are due to improved driving vs the mods....then you drive a friends true "race" car and figure out its time to do that.... Time for a truck and trailer + real race car.....
Then you need to figure out which local race class best suits your goals and budget....there IS a reason why spec miata and spec E30 are SO popular.....lots of fun with large groups and for a "reasonable" budget....
One thing I learned the hard way is you will encounter "checkbook racers"....who buy speed & don't have the driving ability to go with it....I have about ZERO chance of beating anyone with my ultra thin checkbook....but I take great pride in passing those fancy rides in my budget racer!!!!
05-28-2012, 10:48 PM
#56
Burning Brakes
05-30-2012, 08:52 AM
#57
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To say a driver developing their skill level is wasting their time at a PCA DE is BS. Paul, I am not sure what group you run with, but I have seen some real talented racers give time at DE's and provide valuable input to a student that, in turn, listens to the instructor. Hell, our program has an ex Penske Engineer, several top level racers, and on occasion a Grand Am driver show up to assist and give classroom talks. You get out of it what you put in and as Scott described be a "student of the sport" and always willing to learn.
I have a lot of respect for the folks that give their time to sit in the right hand seat and instruct, often with drivers they've never met. I've also never failed to learn from PCA DE instructors. It's a great resource for someone starting out and for those looking to refine skills.
Attend events, get to know the organizers and instructors. If you're safe and fast you'll get moved the appropriate run group. The advanced DE groups and events are a great place to learn car control in an non-competitive environment.
05-30-2012, 11:01 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
My Path
It is enjoyable reading all of these posts and comments. At the risk of getting flamed for whatever reason, here is my story:
2006: I attended three DE events with my first being run by First Settlers Region PCA. I was driving a 2005 Carrera S Two were PCA DEs and one was with Chin all at VIR. I sold the Carrera S and decided to begin the process of taking my 2001 Carrera from a street to track car.
2007: January I attended Bondurant Racing School for four days. While this allowed me to race with SCCA, there was no way I felt ready so I continued on my DE path in 2007 at Roebling Road, Watkins Glen, Summit Point, and VIR for a total of eight DE events with Chin, First Settlers PCA and Potomac PCA.
2008: January I attended PCA National Instructor clinic run by Pete Tremper. Completed 10 DE events with FSR, Potomac, Florida Crown, and Chin instructing 6 times.
2009: PCA Zone 2 DE and finished the transition of my street 2001 Carrera to full race car. Like others have said, it is a never ending process with things like trailers and tow vehicles and on and on! I felt ready for competitive racing, so I decided to complete the NASA Comp School at VIR in March. Friday was the school and Saturday and Sunday was one race each day. Then I attended another NASA race at Summit Point 04/09 with two more races and succesful completion and my NASA racing license running in GTS3. 06/09 I attended my first PCA Club Race(CR) at VIR. 08/09 NJMP CR,. 10/09 Summit Point CR. Also attended some DE events and instructed 5 times.
2010: PCA Sebring CR, Watkins Glen CR, VIR CR, NJMP CR, Summit Point CR. Finished First Place on Rennpoints Stock H (only because the person who always beat me wrecked at Summit and got no points for that weekend!) Three DE events and three students also that year.
2011: PCA Sebring CR and VIR CR plus three DE and three students. Dialing it back some but still having fun and became CTI of our region FSR. We run two VIR events each year.
2012: PCA Road Atlanta and upcoming VIR CR with just one DE a few weeks ago and CTI. At Road Atlanta I hired David Murry along with two others for the Thursday Test and Tune. David provided valuable input for that track and VIR by just watching my video. Like David says, he and other pro drivers can drive at the limit as they are paid to drive someone else's car. We Club Racers and DE people drive our own cars. How much are we willing to risk?
I have a total of 142 track days and some great memories. I have made a lot of friends, and not many enemies I hope, in both Club Racing and DE. I intend to continue and two races with two-three DE events per year is financially workable for me. While my desire now is not as intense as it was in 2010, I know I have a lot to learn and I hope to continue for years to come. Get as much training as possible and always study and learn. Good luck with your efforts!
2006: I attended three DE events with my first being run by First Settlers Region PCA. I was driving a 2005 Carrera S Two were PCA DEs and one was with Chin all at VIR. I sold the Carrera S and decided to begin the process of taking my 2001 Carrera from a street to track car.
2007: January I attended Bondurant Racing School for four days. While this allowed me to race with SCCA, there was no way I felt ready so I continued on my DE path in 2007 at Roebling Road, Watkins Glen, Summit Point, and VIR for a total of eight DE events with Chin, First Settlers PCA and Potomac PCA.
2008: January I attended PCA National Instructor clinic run by Pete Tremper. Completed 10 DE events with FSR, Potomac, Florida Crown, and Chin instructing 6 times.
2009: PCA Zone 2 DE and finished the transition of my street 2001 Carrera to full race car. Like others have said, it is a never ending process with things like trailers and tow vehicles and on and on! I felt ready for competitive racing, so I decided to complete the NASA Comp School at VIR in March. Friday was the school and Saturday and Sunday was one race each day. Then I attended another NASA race at Summit Point 04/09 with two more races and succesful completion and my NASA racing license running in GTS3. 06/09 I attended my first PCA Club Race(CR) at VIR. 08/09 NJMP CR,. 10/09 Summit Point CR. Also attended some DE events and instructed 5 times.
2010: PCA Sebring CR, Watkins Glen CR, VIR CR, NJMP CR, Summit Point CR. Finished First Place on Rennpoints Stock H (only because the person who always beat me wrecked at Summit and got no points for that weekend!) Three DE events and three students also that year.
2011: PCA Sebring CR and VIR CR plus three DE and three students. Dialing it back some but still having fun and became CTI of our region FSR. We run two VIR events each year.
2012: PCA Road Atlanta and upcoming VIR CR with just one DE a few weeks ago and CTI. At Road Atlanta I hired David Murry along with two others for the Thursday Test and Tune. David provided valuable input for that track and VIR by just watching my video. Like David says, he and other pro drivers can drive at the limit as they are paid to drive someone else's car. We Club Racers and DE people drive our own cars. How much are we willing to risk?
I have a total of 142 track days and some great memories. I have made a lot of friends, and not many enemies I hope, in both Club Racing and DE. I intend to continue and two races with two-three DE events per year is financially workable for me. While my desire now is not as intense as it was in 2010, I know I have a lot to learn and I hope to continue for years to come. Get as much training as possible and always study and learn. Good luck with your efforts!
05-30-2012, 11:39 AM
#59
Rennlist Member
I drove together with a guy who did 3 DEs total before he went to Skip Barber school then bought a car and started doing NASA events after that. None of it matters.
Some people feel comfortable with PCA structure of 'mandatory' number of days per each run group, some get bored with it, some, apparently, can get from green novice to an instructor in 11 events, well, it just proves we have a real diversity here.
Some people feel comfortable with PCA structure of 'mandatory' number of days per each run group, some get bored with it, some, apparently, can get from green novice to an instructor in 11 events, well, it just proves we have a real diversity here.
05-30-2012, 12:00 PM
#60
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I drove together with a guy who did 3 DEs total before he went to Skip Barber school then bought a car and started doing NASA events after that. None of it matters.
Some people feel comfortable with PCA structure of 'mandatory' number of days per each run group, some get bored with it, some, apparently, can get from green novice to an instructor in 11 events, well, it just proves we have a real diversity here.
Some people feel comfortable with PCA structure of 'mandatory' number of days per each run group, some get bored with it, some, apparently, can get from green novice to an instructor in 11 events, well, it just proves we have a real diversity here.
FWIW, in four months, I went from absolute green new to my Nat Instructor's Cert + NASA and PCA CR licences after the winter - means nothing.
The system works most of the time and accomplishes what it was designed to do.