Brake pad ideas please
04-23-2012, 08:09 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Brake pad ideas please
I've read a lot of different threads about people's preferred setup for particular cars. I wanted to tap into the brain trust to see what I come up with for my application.
I have a 993 C4S which I converted to a "2" so I have the big red brakes. Stock cooling. My car is 3160 lbs without driver and full fluids...so a giant pig! 80% track car and I do AX and TT events. The AX events are higher speed than what most think of...reaching speeds of 70-90 at most events and tracks are usually about 1.2 miles long. TT events are at the typical SoCal big tracks. I've been running EBC yellowstuff for a few years now and while I feel they are pretty good at the big tracks once well warmed up and I like that they are easy on rotors...for the AX events I barely get them hot each lap and I can feel they don't have the stopping feel like when they are hot. I just had a baby (which is amazing!) and so I expect to do mainly AX events for a year with only a couple big track events sprinkled in.
My goals:
1. to have a pad that has very good stopping ability in the AX setting I will be running mostly for the next year or so (so need a low operating temperature range)
2. Be able to use the same pad at big track events if I choose (however, I can alway put back in the EBC pads if they are better suited)
3. Introduce artificial brake bias more towards the rear by putting in a better "biting" compound in the rear relative to the front.
I'd appreciate any input.
I have a 993 C4S which I converted to a "2" so I have the big red brakes. Stock cooling. My car is 3160 lbs without driver and full fluids...so a giant pig! 80% track car and I do AX and TT events. The AX events are higher speed than what most think of...reaching speeds of 70-90 at most events and tracks are usually about 1.2 miles long. TT events are at the typical SoCal big tracks. I've been running EBC yellowstuff for a few years now and while I feel they are pretty good at the big tracks once well warmed up and I like that they are easy on rotors...for the AX events I barely get them hot each lap and I can feel they don't have the stopping feel like when they are hot. I just had a baby (which is amazing!) and so I expect to do mainly AX events for a year with only a couple big track events sprinkled in.
My goals:
1. to have a pad that has very good stopping ability in the AX setting I will be running mostly for the next year or so (so need a low operating temperature range)
2. Be able to use the same pad at big track events if I choose (however, I can alway put back in the EBC pads if they are better suited)
3. Introduce artificial brake bias more towards the rear by putting in a better "biting" compound in the rear relative to the front.
I'd appreciate any input.
04-23-2012, 09:27 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
VR...thanks for chiming in...your experience/advice on this forum is great! You feel these will perform well in a non-lapping setting such as an AX where I am doing 1 warm up lap and 4-6 hot laps?
04-23-2012, 09:34 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
I think for your moderate climate and 4-6 laps, PFC's will get to temp quickly enough, JMHO. Plus, they require essentially no bedding in, and can be run to the backing plates with no degrdation in performance.
04-24-2012, 01:07 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Not trying to hi-jack the thread, but does anyone have a good dealer for these as I am also interested in giving these a try? If I am not mistaken, what VR is recommending are PFC 0594.06.18.44 and 0447.01.17.44.
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04-24-2012, 07:25 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
if anyone has a good source for these PFC pads please let me know, I'm not easily finding them.
Also, I want to be sure I am understanding the concept of what we are trying to accomplish by using "better" for lack of a better term brake compound in the rear. Bottom line, we are attempting to shift the brake bias to the rear slightly to compensate for the factory setup which has too much front bias to be safe for everyday drivers. An example of the factory putting more rear bias would be the 993 RS which used larger rear calipers to shift the bias towards the rear. The result of putting a grippier compound in the rear is a car that better utilizes the RR platform and wider rear tires under straight line braking and a car that can rotate more easily under hard braking in a trailbraking setting.
Does this all sound in the ballpark? I ask because I was on the phone with a local Porsche Indy shop and talked to the shop foreman/long time racer/car builder and he told me I wanted the exact opposite...that I wanted to shift more bias towards the front of the car. I reminded him that I was using a 911 platform and he didn't change his mind. Is this guy backwards?
Also, I want to be sure I am understanding the concept of what we are trying to accomplish by using "better" for lack of a better term brake compound in the rear. Bottom line, we are attempting to shift the brake bias to the rear slightly to compensate for the factory setup which has too much front bias to be safe for everyday drivers. An example of the factory putting more rear bias would be the 993 RS which used larger rear calipers to shift the bias towards the rear. The result of putting a grippier compound in the rear is a car that better utilizes the RR platform and wider rear tires under straight line braking and a car that can rotate more easily under hard braking in a trailbraking setting.
Does this all sound in the ballpark? I ask because I was on the phone with a local Porsche Indy shop and talked to the shop foreman/long time racer/car builder and he told me I wanted the exact opposite...that I wanted to shift more bias towards the front of the car. I reminded him that I was using a 911 platform and he didn't change his mind. Is this guy backwards?
04-24-2012, 07:39 PM
#10
04-25-2012, 01:17 AM
#12
Race Director
Call Clark at Apex...Greta guy and business. Also Mark at OG is great to deal with...both these places stock PFC.
Pagid Yellows Blacks combo is good for the track but will not be great for AX. I just use stock Porsche street pads for AX. However like VR suggested I've always found that PFC97 or 01 bite hard cold and hot. I'm not sure about the 06 though. The 08's are more of a endurance pad.
Also look into Cobalt. Lots of Grand Am teams are running these.
Pagid Yellows Blacks combo is good for the track but will not be great for AX. I just use stock Porsche street pads for AX. However like VR suggested I've always found that PFC97 or 01 bite hard cold and hot. I'm not sure about the 06 though. The 08's are more of a endurance pad.
Also look into Cobalt. Lots of Grand Am teams are running these.
04-26-2012, 01:33 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
Now that you asked....
I've read a lot of different threads about people's preferred setup for particular cars. I wanted to tap into the brain trust to see what I come up with for my application.
I have a 993 C4S which I converted to a "2" so I have the big red brakes. Sad to say, the Big Reds will not stop you any faster, they just run cooler a while longer. I went from Big Reds back to stock brakes (Thanks Darin at FD Motorsports)...I couldn't be happier
Stock cooling. My car is 3160 lbs without driver and full fluids...so a giant pig!
I have my 993 NB to 2925, no driver, a wee bit of gas. The car went on a diet:
1. RS door panels
2. RS Carpet Kit from Autos International
3. Air bags gone
4. Stock seats replaced with race seats.
5. Heater blower motor in rear removed...I still get heat.
6. FD Motorsports mufflers, 17 Lb saving over stock
7. Fabspeed X pipes and 200 cell cats, saved some weight here
8. Lower dash with glove compartment gone.
However I retained:
1. Airconditioning,
2, Cruise control
3. Power windows
4. Stock glass
80% track car and I do AX and TT events. The AX events are higher speed than what most think of...reaching speeds of 70-90 at most events and tracks are usually about 1.2 miles long.
TT events are at the typical SoCal big tracks. I've been running EBC yellowstuff for a few years now and while I feel they are pretty good at the big tracks once well warmed up and I like that they are easy on rotors...for the AX events I barely get them hot each lap and I can feel they don't have the stopping feel like when they are hot. I just had a baby (which is amazing!) and so I expect to do mainly AX events for a year with only a couple big track events sprinkled in.
You need two types of pads, there is no one size fits all as far I know. You need an autocross pad AND a Big Track pad. Have you asked you maintenance shop? Black Forest. Mirage International and RSR Motorsports would certainly be a good place to start. They prep track cars all the time.
My goals:
1. to have a pad that has very good stopping ability in the AX setting I will be running mostly for the next year or so (so need a low operating temperature range)
2. Be able to use the same pad at big track events if I choose (however, I can alway put back in the EBC pads if they are better suited)
3. Introduce artificial brake bias more towards the rear by putting in a better "biting" compound in the rear relative to the front.
You want rearward bias, get the 993 RS rear calipers. I don't know how the proportioning valve concept works on the 993...I did know but have forgotten. The 993 RS rear calipers look just like Big Reds, but have bigger pistons...more bite.
And keep in mind that tires are a key component...the tires actually do the stopping. The best all around street track tire these days, that does not require shaving is said to be the NT-01. I have used them, nice tires, and you can drive to the track with these tires on the car.
I'd appreciate any input.
I have a 993 C4S which I converted to a "2" so I have the big red brakes. Sad to say, the Big Reds will not stop you any faster, they just run cooler a while longer. I went from Big Reds back to stock brakes (Thanks Darin at FD Motorsports)...I couldn't be happier
Stock cooling. My car is 3160 lbs without driver and full fluids...so a giant pig!
I have my 993 NB to 2925, no driver, a wee bit of gas. The car went on a diet:
1. RS door panels
2. RS Carpet Kit from Autos International
3. Air bags gone
4. Stock seats replaced with race seats.
5. Heater blower motor in rear removed...I still get heat.
6. FD Motorsports mufflers, 17 Lb saving over stock
7. Fabspeed X pipes and 200 cell cats, saved some weight here
8. Lower dash with glove compartment gone.
However I retained:
1. Airconditioning,
2, Cruise control
3. Power windows
4. Stock glass
80% track car and I do AX and TT events. The AX events are higher speed than what most think of...reaching speeds of 70-90 at most events and tracks are usually about 1.2 miles long.
TT events are at the typical SoCal big tracks. I've been running EBC yellowstuff for a few years now and while I feel they are pretty good at the big tracks once well warmed up and I like that they are easy on rotors...for the AX events I barely get them hot each lap and I can feel they don't have the stopping feel like when they are hot. I just had a baby (which is amazing!) and so I expect to do mainly AX events for a year with only a couple big track events sprinkled in.
You need two types of pads, there is no one size fits all as far I know. You need an autocross pad AND a Big Track pad. Have you asked you maintenance shop? Black Forest. Mirage International and RSR Motorsports would certainly be a good place to start. They prep track cars all the time.
My goals:
1. to have a pad that has very good stopping ability in the AX setting I will be running mostly for the next year or so (so need a low operating temperature range)
2. Be able to use the same pad at big track events if I choose (however, I can alway put back in the EBC pads if they are better suited)
3. Introduce artificial brake bias more towards the rear by putting in a better "biting" compound in the rear relative to the front.
You want rearward bias, get the 993 RS rear calipers. I don't know how the proportioning valve concept works on the 993...I did know but have forgotten. The 993 RS rear calipers look just like Big Reds, but have bigger pistons...more bite.
And keep in mind that tires are a key component...the tires actually do the stopping. The best all around street track tire these days, that does not require shaving is said to be the NT-01. I have used them, nice tires, and you can drive to the track with these tires on the car.
I'd appreciate any input.
But just remember, a pro racing instructor is about $500 to $1000 a day. A Data Logger, fully set up, is about $1,500...and it keeps on giving, and giving.
04-26-2012, 01:45 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Martin,
Thanks for your input. I think what I'm realizing is a safe and cheap way to get good consistent braking in an AX venue is to just stick with the stock pads. I do know the big reds don't stop any better...just better at handling heat. This means a track pad at an AX is even worse an idea for my application since it's all about getting them to temp.
You said to check with some of the local shops...I have and am getting conflicting information! There is nothing better than actually trying something so I'm going to put in my stock pads for the next AX and then race pads for the following event...I bet I'll be able to feel which is better.
shedding more weight and data logging...ha...that will be saved for when I get a dedicated track car! My 993 WB is not the car to take to a full blown track animal. I just had a baby so I need something cheaper I can write off! Then I'll come join you POC guys
Thanks for your input. I think what I'm realizing is a safe and cheap way to get good consistent braking in an AX venue is to just stick with the stock pads. I do know the big reds don't stop any better...just better at handling heat. This means a track pad at an AX is even worse an idea for my application since it's all about getting them to temp.
You said to check with some of the local shops...I have and am getting conflicting information! There is nothing better than actually trying something so I'm going to put in my stock pads for the next AX and then race pads for the following event...I bet I'll be able to feel which is better.
shedding more weight and data logging...ha...that will be saved for when I get a dedicated track car! My 993 WB is not the car to take to a full blown track animal. I just had a baby so I need something cheaper I can write off! Then I'll come join you POC guys
04-26-2012, 01:46 PM
#15
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Call Clark at Apex...Greta guy and business. Also Mark at OG is great to deal with...both these places stock PFC.
Pagid Yellows Blacks combo is good for the track but will not be great for AX. I just use stock Porsche street pads for AX. However like VR suggested I've always found that PFC97 or 01 bite hard cold and hot. I'm not sure about the 06 though. The 08's are more of a endurance pad.
Also look into Cobalt. Lots of Grand Am teams are running these.
Pagid Yellows Blacks combo is good for the track but will not be great for AX. I just use stock Porsche street pads for AX. However like VR suggested I've always found that PFC97 or 01 bite hard cold and hot. I'm not sure about the 06 though. The 08's are more of a endurance pad.
Also look into Cobalt. Lots of Grand Am teams are running these.
