TRAKCAR

Yes, I'm with you.
Not easy for me to achieve, but easy for you to make me understand if you are in the car with me

Here is the next day, colder weather but no rear grip with unshaved RA1's.
It was a nice experiment to see what i stiffer rear sway bar would do I think.
Laptimes were tough with traffic.


Now full soft front, middle rear on sway bars. That is all I want to mess with.
48hours I will stiffen rear bar and see if that is faster, if too lose in the rear I will stiffen front bar. If not fater overall go back to where I am now. Makes sense?

Seth Thomas

+1 Great observation as this translates to more than just T1 or to only Sebring. Lots of time can be found at every track you go to applying some of these techiniques

TRAKCAR

Thanks!

I looked at T1 segment time, very similar time each lap but when looking at when I go to gas I't a mess lap to lap. Need more rythm into t1 for sure.

PedroNole

NOW you're using data!

TRAKCAR

LOL, the heat is on with the 4.0's and guys running slicks ;-)

Veloce Raptor

+ Juan

Hahahaha! Yeah, definitely an arms race out there. As I said, 2 easy seconds in just 3 corners, plus more (in smaller increments) elsewhere, and poof! You, on RA1's, are driving closer to your potential, regardless of what the "other guys" bring.

NJ-GT

2:16 on RA1 with a 3,500 2010 GT3 RS 3.8? I'm a non believer, unless the car is quite modified, that would be a 2:12 on slicks, which is 3.6 GT3 Cup territory, a car with massively more downforce and 700 lbs less weight.

A 2:16.999 is not a 2:16 in my rookie book.

Veloce Raptor

GT3 RS is 3,031 pounds, not 3,500. And the 2010 RS has a lot more motor than a 6Cup...and Sebring is a motor track.

And yes, he has 2 easy seconds he is giving away in that video, just due to how he is driving & where he is placing the car. There is more time there thhat is harder to get, but 2 easy seconds. Don't believe it? Fine. But I know real time when I see it.

NJ-GT

3,031 is what the manual says, I rather trust the scales. U.S. version 2010 GT3 RS with no fuel (no chance to do one lap without fuel) and no options is 3,116 lbs.

3,500 lbs with driver included is about what TRAKCAR is running.

7Cup 3.6 has amazing short gearing, despite of the 35Hp deficit to the 2010 GT3 RS 3.8 street car, it has monstrous Aero, and 700 lbs removed, no way (I'm a non-believer) 2010 GT3 RS on RA1 would do 2:16, unless highly modified, and Pat Long is going for the kill.

But, I can be proven wrong, showtime!!!

Veloce Raptor

LOL! if you say so... It's more like 300-400 pounds, but I am not going to argue the point with you. I am only saying that TrakCar (Pat Long not needed LOL) could extract 2 seconds, by only making 3 small changes in what he was doing in his 2:18 video...and these changes would actually reduce the drama inside the car and increase its stability. I think he knows that I know what I am talking about on this.

But YMMV....

ProCoach

This really does have the possibility of turning into a highly entertaining, if not informative thread, but as likely as not, it could turn into a big train wreck , too!

I'm with VR on this, as I see numerous instances in both TRAKCAR's video and in RadGT3's Scud video where the car's less than optimal placement and heading interferes with proper (maximum braking), throttle application and the duration of time around vMin for several corners. The slower corners yield the most time and there are several at Sebring. That's where you work first!

All respect to Pat Long, one of the best American Porsche talents beside Leh Keen <grin>, but we ALL bleed red.

I have seen practiced, studied Club drivers match performance metrics set by the pros. Pro is not the most important ingredient in going fast, planning and execution of "best practices" are!

More soon.

TRAKCAR

Well certainly NJGT's lines are more questionable them mine cough....cough...

I'll take it as a compliment from NJGT, but he's the only one with illusions of pro's only going 3 seconds faster then me.

Their weight difference alone is good for a second. So no doubt in my mind my car is capable of 2:16's.
Probably faster because with all the starts alligned; Perfect condition RA1's, no traffic and 44F weather I think it was possible for me to get into 2:17's. I found a lot of time, mostly T16 and T17 and fine tuned a bit everywhere, this data and video was from Friday and I was quicker on Sat + Sun. I think, good for a 2:182 (TBL) on unshaven RA1's in the rear only.

ProCoach

A little elaboration of my previous post.

It's important in these observations (and even in VR's response, I think, tell me if I'm out of line VR ) to understand that these are not criticisms of anyone's performance, they are observations of potential performance improvement.

Predicate #1 in my business: EVERYONE can go faster.
Predicate #2: There is NO car that cannot be driven faster by someone else.
Predicate #3: The greatest limitation to performance improvement is one's own belief (based on their perception and experience) of what is possible.

As one becomes familiar with the quantifiable and objectively measured "best practices" of those who are pros (have a demonstrated level of performance far in excess of those who do this more casually), one becomes familiar with the patterns of performance execution that differ the greatest between the two sets of drivers.

Those of us who make a living (on a daily basis and full-time) can observe these videos and snippets of data and relate VERY quickly those differences, doing rough calculations in our heads to come up with these sort of statements.

In the past twenty-two years, I have found, on average, the most time at Sebring for drivers in Turns 1, 5, 7, 13, 15 and 17. Very few do the Turn 3-4-5 or Turn 15-16 sequence well. Even fewer do Turn 7 or 17 without wasting a BUNCH of time...

That said, I don't ever spell out, guarantee or even target particular, very specific lap times in any of the work I do with drivers/clients/pros.

I have an idea of a range, in my mind, based on my experience and thousands of data files (from the widest range of driver performance that you can imagine), but there are too many variables not within the drivers control that dictate what the stopwatch will read to say "2 seconds, easy."

That's treating the problem symptomatically, instead of treating the disease. Focus on forming a detailed plan, execute as well as possible and the times will come without drama. The faster you go, the more detailed the plan has to be. At some point, you have to go beyond what you think is possible, but at a gradient that is gentle enough that will allow you to pull it back, if it goes to far beyond your limit.

It all boils down to equipping the driver with a vision SO CLEAR of EXACTLY where to place the car and under what dynamic condition, then measuring the variance between the ACTUAL best execution of THAT driver in other areas where said driver has been able to demonstrate best execution, then COLLECTIVELY between the coach and the driver come up with and identify where and how to execute that HIGHEST LEVEL of performance EVERY CORNER, EVERY LAP.

Only THEN does the driver goes quicker with less drama and the times come down. Often quicker than the driver expects they will be...

As a final observation, James Sofronas did a 2:10.7 in WC Qualifying in 2006, 2:10.8 in WC Qualifying in 2007 and a 2:11.9 in WC Qualifying in 2008. All this on Toyo RA-1/R888... THIS is fast...

So yes, there is evidence to support that the average Joe, properly focused and executing, can certainly do the target time suggested by VR.

Finally, TRAKCAR hits the diagnostic nail on the head. The fact that his throttle application points through T1 are, in his words, "a mess" (I read that they are not consistent in location, the car's heading or even at a speed that they occur) means that he HAS to have a better idea, in much more detail and processed real-time as he goes through this corner of what he want to do...

It's not just needing a "better rhythm" of what he needs to do "going in to t1," it's a better rhythm and a path so perfectly charted so that every control input, every speed versus distance measurement and execution, every lateral placement for every foot of forward motion is planned and executed to yield traces on the data that are overlaid nearly perfectly... Gotta do the same thing and at a high level, first.

If it were easy, everyone would do it! That's enough from me today...

PedroNole

"monstrous". Ummm, not really

I would be willing to join the debate and say that that car, set up properly, could beat an average 6 Cup. One thing that Peter (TrakCar) doesn't tell you is that he rarely ever adjusts sways, camber, etc. Now, beating an average 7 cup, probably not...especially at Sebring.

Veloce Raptor

Lolaman, not out of line at all. We are on the same page, being in the same business.

That said, I know TRAKCAR well, and have hung with him at several tracks. I have an idea of his style, and how he works the car, even though I have never ridden right seat with him. It is for this reason only that I say he has a free 2 seconds on the table, all other things being equal. If I did not know him, I would merely say "you are leaving time on the table especially in 3 corners".

I pretty much concur with everything else in your post.