move to cup car vs cayman
12-19-2011, 07:32 AM
#31
I went through the same decision process last year at this time. Bottom line was that I was looking more for a DE car that I can race once in a while versus a race car that I could DE. I ended up building an H class Cayman. I looked at several Cups and even PPI'd 2 of them but didn't pull the trigger. I was pulling an open trailer with a mid sized truck as well. But would need an enclosed trailer eventually and a bigger tow truck (which I wasn't too keen on since that is my DD). The Cup running costs were given to me by a buddy that has 2 of them...if you are racing for fun and not necessarily for podium, you can get by with lower operating costs but you are not using the car to it's potential... Parts get timed out and then you run into issues with stuff breaking (e.g. axles). I think if you want a nice big group to race in where the cars are pretty much even, can't go wrong with Cup. The Cayman build was more than the Cups that I was looking at but i think it better fits what I need now which is what really matters...the operating costs are much lower moving forward (regular gas, rotors, pads, tires etc are all 30-50% cheaper). Resale will be much better with Cup but only if you keep up with the maintenance. Cups are real race cars which is also another consideration...if it fits what you want to do (primarily racing in a competitive series/class) and you have the commitment and the budget, that is the way to go.
12-20-2011, 09:54 AM
#32
Talk to guys who own a Cup, not guys who flap their gums why they are not driving one. It's really the same discussion every single time. Try a search and you'll find in 99% of those threads that whoever is interested in buying a Cup gets negative responses from the peanut gallery. "I didn't buy a Cup because the running costs/rebuild costs/tire costs/need a dedicated crew costs/need a truck and trailer costs/blah blah blah costs.
Do you want a true, factory built race car, or do you want to convert a street car? Both have compromises. PM "Glen" here on Rennlist for the skinny on everything Cup. Contact "Dan Jacobs" on RL who has driven the Cup and the Cayman S and he'll tell you which one is still in his garage. Good luck in your decision.
Do you want a true, factory built race car, or do you want to convert a street car? Both have compromises. PM "Glen" here on Rennlist for the skinny on everything Cup. Contact "Dan Jacobs" on RL who has driven the Cup and the Cayman S and he'll tell you which one is still in his garage. Good luck in your decision.
12-20-2011, 10:27 AM
#33
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Hey mos996tt.....I bought Dan's car!
One comment that Dan made was that the Cup Car was "no fun" at places like Lime Rock and it is a car that you have to be on all the time. To drive one fast takes extra effort and unrelenting focus. Sure, the same can be said for any race car, but Cup Cars and high-strung formula cars and the like require more preparation and focus, IMHO. So, much depends on how you are going to approach your tracking and racing.
I spoke to several reputable shops across the country before deciding on the Cayman S. In fact, the week prior, I was actually buying a 2005 Cup Cup which had been fully rebuilt. The buy-in price was similar, but most agreed that the Cup Car was more technical and required more attention. I heard stories of very expensive axles and carbon fiber doors, more expensive tires that require quicker replacement, race fuel (although I will run race fuel in the Cayman), tricky clutch, sensitivity to minor shock adjustments, and so on. I also believe that overall drive-train operating costs will be lower on the Gen 2 Cayman, having heard many comments of their bullet-proof qualities.
I usually go to the track with no support, having to do most of the paddock work myself. Maybe my age was part of the factor that made me think that the Cayman would be less work, and easier to handle.
I also believe that it might be more difficult and expensive to be competitive racing with the Cup Car and the ITC Series seems interesting for the Caymans.
But, I do agree that there is a strong argument for running a factory-built race car (I raced them in the '70's), the practicality of a purpose-built car. But even Cup Cars need extensive tweaking and additional modifications for them to be competitive.
One comment that Dan made was that the Cup Car was "no fun" at places like Lime Rock and it is a car that you have to be on all the time. To drive one fast takes extra effort and unrelenting focus. Sure, the same can be said for any race car, but Cup Cars and high-strung formula cars and the like require more preparation and focus, IMHO. So, much depends on how you are going to approach your tracking and racing.
I spoke to several reputable shops across the country before deciding on the Cayman S. In fact, the week prior, I was actually buying a 2005 Cup Cup which had been fully rebuilt. The buy-in price was similar, but most agreed that the Cup Car was more technical and required more attention. I heard stories of very expensive axles and carbon fiber doors, more expensive tires that require quicker replacement, race fuel (although I will run race fuel in the Cayman), tricky clutch, sensitivity to minor shock adjustments, and so on. I also believe that overall drive-train operating costs will be lower on the Gen 2 Cayman, having heard many comments of their bullet-proof qualities.
I usually go to the track with no support, having to do most of the paddock work myself. Maybe my age was part of the factor that made me think that the Cayman would be less work, and easier to handle.
I also believe that it might be more difficult and expensive to be competitive racing with the Cup Car and the ITC Series seems interesting for the Caymans.
But, I do agree that there is a strong argument for running a factory-built race car (I raced them in the '70's), the practicality of a purpose-built car. But even Cup Cars need extensive tweaking and additional modifications for them to be competitive.
12-20-2011, 09:57 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I am a crew of one at all of my races. Sure my buddies will help but the basic crewing is on me.
12-20-2011, 10:47 PM
#35
Nordschleife Master
12-26-2011, 10:19 PM
#36
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Look...they're ALL expensive, just in varying degrees relative to performance. Performance-wise, it's not even close! If you buy the Cup, you won't regret it from that standpoint. However, if you want to run at the front it's serious money and not just tires. If you want to get the most out of you AND the car, you've got to have the right support (mechanical and engineering/data) and that's not cheap.
12-27-2011, 10:50 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
all in all it is all about money in the end. if most of us could dump a 100 grand per year on this hobby without any hesitation (and blessed are those who can)then it would be nothing to discuss but most of us cannot afford that, so, we discuss and discuss... and discuss.
cars are costly, discussions are free, so, why not to discuss it again. even if it really makes no sense at all to compare expenses on a current year spec cup racer to a average non-spec DE car.
12-27-2011, 10:57 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
great to hear this again, i was told exactly that when i opened my mouth to say - 'spec boxster is a cheap platform to race' and was told it is in fact not and ends up very close to a cup car parts wise, plus engine does not last long.
Last edited by utkinpol; 12-27-2011 at 11:15 AM.
12-27-2011, 11:07 AM
#40
The Penguin King
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12-27-2011, 07:20 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Look...they're ALL expensive, just in varying degrees relative to performance. Performance-wise, it's not even close! If you buy the Cup, you won't regret it from that standpoint. However, if you want to run at the front it's serious money and not just tires. If you want to get the most out of you AND the car, you've got to have the right support (mechanical and engineering/data) and that's not cheap.
I just won the NASA GTS1 national race at Mid Ohio this fall in my NA 944 that I had ended up dumping about $25k of parts into over the last 2 years. That is not consumables, they are go fast parts. Not labor, not the 3 motors I went through, parts as the car sat after the race. So, that is $12.5k of upgrade parts per year plus all of the consumables. I ran mixed 93 and 110 octane because I ran high compression pistons with an aggressive tune. I went through tires fairly quickly because I wanted to be fast all year.
I figure if I roll my upgrade costs in trying to make a silk purse out a sows ear into pure maintenance costs I can drive a purpose built race car that is ready to go without me constantly chasing the next upgrade.
Yes, I plan to run Hoosier DOT's because that is how it best fits in NASA and (last year my tire budget was $500. I won all that I used) No, I do not plan on spending $50k on a rebuild because I am not planning on having PMNA do the rebuilds.
All of that said, my '05 6 cup shows up Thursday next week.
12-27-2011, 11:38 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Congrats on the purchase!!!
12-28-2011, 12:08 AM
#45
Burning Brakes
^ cup car is more than that. but it should last 150 hours unless you zing'd it, for amateur use. i know of many who has those hours and still running strong. but when it does need rebuild, it's 15-20k on the motor. i am trying to convince myself that i dont need one, but not very convincing as you can see.
I just spent an afternoon calculating all my expenses and track time over 2011 (21 races, 27 test days). I'm still drowning my sorrows...
-mike