DE Lines vs Racing Lines
10-22-2011, 02:30 AM
#46
Rennlist Member
As far as crapcan racing, I want to race against the best guys out there, where I can learn to up my game. These are guys,who've put the effort in to get a comp license, and have likely spent years refining their racecraft. Doing something well takes training, and repetition. Yes, there are some of these types in the crapcan races, but by the nature of the event, a smaller percentage. Less for me to learn from, and measure myself up against. I don't doubt it's a fun gimmick, but not satisfying in the same way over time, for me.
10-22-2011, 04:36 AM
#47
Nordschleife Master
F1 is a bad example. The only time passing is relatively easy is with the help of DRS. We've seen some interesting "super defensive" moves at starts and in the DRS zones this year. Outside of DRS zones, you have to be MUCH faster to make a pass on a driver not making a mistake or take a big risk.
If the aero packages didn't protect the F1 driver in front so much, I can guarantee we would see some super defensive lines. Just like we did back in the 70's.
Scott
If the aero packages didn't protect the F1 driver in front so much, I can guarantee we would see some super defensive lines. Just like we did back in the 70's.
Scott
The only time I can justify taking defensive lines is when I have a marginally faster car behind me, trying to pass for position, and there are only a few laps or corners left in the race.
10-22-2011, 04:43 AM
#48
My point is that if you waste time trying to be defensive, not only will the faster cars eventually get around you, but the cars that are marginally slower, will also catch up and become a threat.
The only time I can justify taking defensive lines is when I have a marginally faster car behind me, trying to pass for position, and there are only a few laps or corners left in the race.
The only time I can justify taking defensive lines is when I have a marginally faster car behind me, trying to pass for position, and there are only a few laps or corners left in the race.
Scott
10-22-2011, 09:13 AM
#49
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My point is that if you waste time trying to be defensive, not only will the faster cars eventually get around you, but the cars that are marginally slower, will also catch up and become a threat.
The only time I can justify taking defensive lines is when I have a marginally faster car behind me, trying to pass for position, and there are only a few laps or corners left in the race.
The only time I can justify taking defensive lines is when I have a marginally faster car behind me, trying to pass for position, and there are only a few laps or corners left in the race.
With the addition of his "moral and ethical" comment - which I took to mean that one only ultimately cheats oneself, I believe this to be correct.
10-22-2011, 01:21 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Running defensive the whole race does seem poor form, but the scenario I posted above still applies. If two cars are generally the same speed, which happens a lot in spec racing, defending on occasion can be useful if a mistake is made.
Another instance where this is useful is when two equally matched drivers are fast in different areas. Ultimately, the answer is to find out how a competitor is getting through that particular corner better than you are, but in the middle of the race, you may need to defend that one corner when you competitor is close on a particular lap. If you are defending every corner, it's hopeless, and you should give it up, and learn something from the guy behind you, but there are times where it's appropriate.
Another instance where this is useful is when two equally matched drivers are fast in different areas. Ultimately, the answer is to find out how a competitor is getting through that particular corner better than you are, but in the middle of the race, you may need to defend that one corner when you competitor is close on a particular lap. If you are defending every corner, it's hopeless, and you should give it up, and learn something from the guy behind you, but there are times where it's appropriate.
10-22-2011, 02:00 PM
#51
Or similar skills and lap times but very different cars. There is a big HP, weight and handling disparity in junkcar racing, you have to keep adjusting your tactics given your competition's characteristics.
10-22-2011, 02:06 PM
#52
Running defensive the whole race does seem poor form, but the scenario I posted above still applies. If two cars are generally the same speed, which happens a lot in spec racing, defending on occasion can be useful if a mistake is made.
Another instance where this is useful is when two equally matched drivers are fast in different areas. Ultimately, the answer is to find out how a competitor is getting through that particular corner better than you are, but in the middle of the race, you may need to defend that one corner when you competitor is close on a particular lap. If you are defending every corner, it's hopeless, and you should give it up, and learn something from the guy behind you, but there are times where it's appropriate.
Another instance where this is useful is when two equally matched drivers are fast in different areas. Ultimately, the answer is to find out how a competitor is getting through that particular corner better than you are, but in the middle of the race, you may need to defend that one corner when you competitor is close on a particular lap. If you are defending every corner, it's hopeless, and you should give it up, and learn something from the guy behind you, but there are times where it's appropriate.
When I raced bikes, I loved it when I came up on riders that were fast but only really knew the "fast" line around a corner. This usually meant they were leaving huge openings on the inside that I could exploit by going to the inside and braking a little later and trail braking more to the apex. All they had to do to make this pass much harder was to alter their line a little bit and protect the inside. But, since they had never really spent time practicing that line, they wouldn't be fast on that line so it wasn't an option for them.
You don't have to make huge changes in line, or lose a lot of speed, to make it a lot harder to pass on the inside.
Scott
10-24-2011, 11:48 AM
#53
Race Director
My point is that if you waste time trying to be defensive, not only will the faster cars eventually get around you, but the cars that are marginally slower, will also catch up and become a threat.
The only time I can justify taking defensive lines is when I have a marginally faster car behind me, trying to pass for position, and there are only a few laps or corners left in the race.
The only time I can justify taking defensive lines is when I have a marginally faster car behind me, trying to pass for position, and there are only a few laps or corners left in the race.
The fact is taking a defensive line is always situational. You need to make a judgement as to what impact it will have on your overall race. Racing is about making passes and defending. It is about having the "slower car" and still winning because you were a better racer. Especially in spec racing there should be no easy passes for position. Every pass should be tough and well defended. It should require maximum skill to pull off pass and maximum skill when defending that pass.
The most satisfying passes I have made are those on the guys that have defended the most. The guys that I may have need 10 laps to pass and need to set-up the mover 2-3 corners early or 2-3 laps earlier. The passes where you let them defend let them defend and use that against them later... That is what racing is all about... forcing them into a position of weakness so you can pounce.
10-24-2011, 10:35 PM
#54
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10-24-2011, 11:52 PM
#55
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? Good, then. 
I race a guy all the time in a car that has a spec engine, tires, weight the same as mine at Lime Rock. We are always within a tenth or two at low :53 second laps.
I'm stronger than he is going into Big Bend, the Left Hander and particularly the right onto No Name. He's better at West Bend and consequently Diving Turn (because he's slowed less into West Bend, is quicker through and out and we're both flat in Diving Turn).
I have seen him take a defensive line into Big Bend, at which point I drive around the outside. He drives inside at the entry of the Left Hander and I drive around the outside. I can't do anything onto No Name, because we cross each other.
I can tell you that if either one of us screws up, we can't get that time back and have to rely on the other guy screwing up to even out the elapsed time. We traded wins on the Labor Day weekend this year in the Saturday races.
Puts a premium on driving clean and optimally...
I race a guy all the time in a car that has a spec engine, tires, weight the same as mine at Lime Rock. We are always within a tenth or two at low :53 second laps.
I'm stronger than he is going into Big Bend, the Left Hander and particularly the right onto No Name. He's better at West Bend and consequently Diving Turn (because he's slowed less into West Bend, is quicker through and out and we're both flat in Diving Turn).
I have seen him take a defensive line into Big Bend, at which point I drive around the outside. He drives inside at the entry of the Left Hander and I drive around the outside. I can't do anything onto No Name, because we cross each other.
I can tell you that if either one of us screws up, we can't get that time back and have to rely on the other guy screwing up to even out the elapsed time. We traded wins on the Labor Day weekend this year in the Saturday races.
Puts a premium on driving clean and optimally...
__________________
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
10-25-2011, 04:45 AM
#56
Nordschleife Master
I think as an amendment to my earlier post, another appropriate time to take a defensive line is when catching up to slower cars. I feel like a hero when I can pass for position when the car ahead of me gets stuck behind traffic, but when it's me that lets a slower car pass me when I hit traffic, the pitlane can hear the curse words spewing out of my helmet.
How do you guys handle situations where an equal car is on your *** and you come up to traffic?
How do you guys handle situations where an equal car is on your *** and you come up to traffic?
10-25-2011, 08:21 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
Rich, One method you may want to try is to pump up the brakes with the left foot. Sends a "brake check" to the car behind you. Even if he does not slow or react he is now watching your car more than the traffic ahead. If the car following can see through you to the traffic your in trouble since it is easy to get pinned in.
10-25-2011, 08:59 AM
#58
Rennlist Member
I think as an amendment to my earlier post, another appropriate time to take a defensive line is when catching up to slower cars. I feel like a hero when I can pass for position when the car ahead of me gets stuck behind traffic, but when it's me that lets a slower car pass me when I hit traffic, the pitlane can hear the curse words spewing out of my helmet.
How do you guys handle situations where an equal car is on your *** and you come up to traffic?
How do you guys handle situations where an equal car is on your *** and you come up to traffic?
Rich, One method you may want to try is to pump up the brakes with the left foot. Sends a "brake check" to the car behind you. Even if he does not slow or react he is now watching your car more than the traffic ahead. If the car following can see through you to the traffic your in trouble since it is easy to get pinned in.
10-25-2011, 09:34 AM
#59
Race Director
It depends entirely on where you catch the slower traffic. The goal really is to catch the slower traffic in spot where you can pass, but they guy on your tail cannot. He then gets stuck behing the traffic for at least a few turns allowing you to pull a gap. If not then you need to aggressive and may the pass right away. Any delay will allow the car trailing you to catch up. Any loss of momentum on your part will give the trailing car the advantage.
Even so somes it does not work out and you just catch traffic in a bad spot. Same applies if you are racing a car and a faster car is going through. This why position on track is so key. Even if you get slow down in pace by the traffic if you can maintain the superior position on track you can maintain the lead and prevent a pass. Planning ahead is key. Think not just about the corner you are in, but what may play out in 2-3 corners. Racing with the next 2-3 corners in mind following the only you are approching is a key aspect of race craft. It may mean giving up some speed or position in corner you are in so that 2 corners later you are in the superior position. This why running fast laps in racing is nice, but it only gets you in the door. Winning races is not just about speed, but being in front and staying infront and there are so many other factors. Very mental.
Nearly all my races have involoved lap traffic to some degree. Mostly for me it is faster cars passing me, but some times the ohter way around too. It aways increases the intensity, but thing to remember is traffic giveth and traffic taketh. One lap you can get screwed by traffic and on the next you may gain a big edge. The biggest factor is where on track you catch them and how you are able to react to it. Traffic manangement is major part of race craft. Experineced racers tend to flow around traffic much better than new racers and can use traffic to create gaps or pass competitors.
10-25-2011, 10:14 AM
#60
Nordschleife Master
Now as for real racing vs DE.... There is a difference in the lines.
DE is first about being safe on the track. Lines taught are to be safe and smooth. Fast is nice, but instructors and schools will teach a line that will keep drivers with limited skills on the track. So straight line braking and late apexs tend to be safer and taught.
As you progress in DE and you car control skills improve you can adjust the lines to maximize speed. This means often taking a line with more risk. You will start braking in corners and taking earlier axpes leaving less margin on track out. Speeds increase and skills needed to execute increase. This evolves in to a "qualfying line". Or a line that is all about low lap times overall.
When you race you being to understand that it is not about the lowest lap time, but about position on track. So there are times when you need to slow the car down and increas your lap time to maintain position. Some times this can be pretty clearly defending position. Others times it mean slowing certain parts of the track where passing is hard to maximize speed down a straight to prevent a pass. So you may chose to take a slower entry and a later apex to ensure higher top speed down the straight to prevent a pass. When racing you use all the road not just the line and often times you need to change things up. Of course there are times in racing when you use the qualfying line because what you need is cut fast lap after fast lap. It all depends on where you are on track.
Now on out of class traffic...
I drive a slow momentum car in spec class. I have raced on track with all sorts of fast cars and have been pass more times than I can count. I have been in tight neck and neck battles only to have faster traffic that was in a race of it is own come pass. Dealing with faster traffic is learned skill. It is not easy. In general you want fast cars to pass you on a straight long before the corner. This allows them to take the turn as they wish and for you to do the same. When that happens is ideal. Alot of times it does not happen that way. So from here you want to let the fast car by in way that it minimizes your change in apex speed.
The next best place is in brake zone where you let them have the inside and delay turn in to tuck in right behind them. Smartly done you can even pass competitor this way by follow in the hole the faster car makes.
However becareful I have seen many many faster cars pass just before brake zones and then rather than stay to the inside which I freely give them they just right back in front of me on my line. Often times I have to check up hard since my braking point is in deeper than theirs due my low speed. Not much I can do other than be ready for it.
At some point I reach my turn in point (normal fast turn in not a defensive one) and once I do if a faster car not in passing position just yet... Sorry charlie.. you wait. I will not give up an apex unless the car is right there. If they are too far back as turn in I wil take the apex. I never want to go side by side with fast car with me on the outside. Pointless really. If at Mid corner he wants the outside then so be it. He can have it and will give room at track out. If not wait till the next straight where I will gladly give a point by.
In practice I try to give the fast guys a point by whenever possible. I want them to see my car and be confortable with what I am going to do. Point bys help tell them that I see them and will give them room. It allows them to make the move faster not compromising their speed. It also make it more obvious that when I don't point by I may not give them room. Despite my lack of HP there are places on track where I am running very similar apex speed to the fast cars and they need to understand that.
In end dealing with traffic is always complex. Some times you can get it right another you get it wrong and it kills your momentum. I have had racers where due to non-class traffic I have been able to pass competitors and have had other races ruine by non-class traffic (both faster and slower). Alot of time its is the luck of the draw. Last race I was in close battle for class lead. Then we both came on 2 slower Rx-7s. Class learder caught them on the straight and it hardly slowed him down. I caught them right at end of brake zone, but too late to make a pass move. Due to the track I had wait another mile before I could make clean safe pass. I lost 2 seconds waiting... They did nothing wrong and I was not about to force my way through to make stupid move. Just bad luck on when I caught them. Happens sometimes...
