M758

The problem in chump car and all these junk car series is the range of driving talent. It is quite vast and easy to misjudge. Racing competitive takes having trust in the guys you are racing. Trust in what they will do on track. Any experinced racer will race a rookie different that an experinced racer. With some rookies you can make indimidation passes. Basicly you show the nose and make it look like you can pass and they just give it you. Same move on an experinced may get your nose chopped off because they know who has the corner.

Clearly both drivers were NOT on the same page with what was occuring. The passing car thought there was room and lead car did not. Results crash. Fault.. Impossible to determine from this alone. Just because the lead car felt like he got dive bombed does not mean anything to me. People use the term dive bomb in alot of cases they should not.

This crash is probably a result of same thing alot crashes are the result of. One guy assumed the other guy was going to one thing and they did another. When you have racer and non-racers together it can be much harder to assume anything a great chance to get it wrong.

ProCoach

Well, this is a good way to spend a rainy afternoon...

If drivers, even inexperienced ones, are treated as adults and have the expectations very clearly explained to them (then violations of those expectations are enforced), they generally follow those expectations. I was very pleased and surprised that in the "junk car" events I've done, nearly everyone played nice and while there were some flustered people, no one did anything really boneheaded or unsafe. It was better than average, I can tell you that.

The fact that you got passed at the start and couldn't figure out a way to pass back is your issue, not a rationalization for crafting a questionable driving strategy... Clearly, you did not have ENOUGH speed. I fail to see how defensive driving could have helped your cause, even when considering employing those tactics to keep your pole. Is blocking your idea of race craft? My idea of race craft is to formulate a strategy to get the blocker to trip over themselves so I can get back by.

Your simplistic view of an instant "snap shot in time" car position between two protagonists to determine who "owns the corner" is not well thought out, partially because in these situations, the car positions relative to one another are NEVER static, but changing all the time.

If there is a chance that there is ANY overlap, darned right you better leave room, or there WILL be contact. And how do you determine who you should let through versus those you decide to say "sorry, charlie" to? Why not simplify matters and leave a car width plus 6 inches and we BOTH get through?

Finally, defensive driving is NOT racing, it's chicken$h!t blocking.

"Positioning" your car, based on another competitor's position to deprive them of racing room is wrong, period. I would NEVER want someone to race me like that and I won't race others like that.

Besides, you have no advantage if you position your car off the optimal path to slow the least, drag down the braking zone into the corner or to get on the power soonest.

Racing to me is going through the corner, sometimes several corners and, if I'm lucky, around a whole LAP or more SIDE-BY-SIDE with a friend and competitor in a car with simialr performance potential, evaluating each other's strenghts and weaknesses, giving each other racing room and LETTING THE CORNERS SORT IT OUT!

THAT'S why it's not just "glorified lapping," even without stupid, "defensive" driving...

I've driven right through people who did that, and while I'm ashamed I lost emotional control and discipline, I'm not sorry I did it...

onefastviking

I think different parts of the country get different types of talent. Here is some of the inexperience we get in this part of the country. I think it's this type of racing that the OP is kinda referencing.


Thus, I won't do any of the "junk" events. I enjoy my racing but I take it a little more serious than that. If I want inexpensive racing then I will go to the Kart track.

ProCoach

Cool, I understand.

certz

onefastviking - I remember seeing this video when it came out and, if I remember correctly, there was some commentary about how the Escort either did not have front fenders or the wheels had offsets which put the edge of the tire outside the edge of the fender. This allowed the Escort to basically drive up the door of the other car after being bumped. This incident led to a rule change about fenders/tires/offsets to try and prevent this from happening again.

I can see how you and others consider this not worth your time. But I have seen plenty of PCA club racing incidents that involved bumping and cars flying through the air so I do not think it is fair for you to look at this incident and basically dismiss it and the drivers out of hand and say that they do not take it seriously. To each his own, I say.

M758

I had the speed to pull away with ease. I since I was new to racing I lacked the skill to pass that driver. I had only one pass move in my bag of tricks and when we smartly defended it I was left with nothing. From there I learned being fast is fine, but unless you can race it easily mitigated. That was some 9 years ago and I have learned alot since then. I have beaten guys with speed, I have beaten guys with luck and beaten guys with race craft. Of course I have been beaten these ways as well.

No need for defensive driving by me in that case since I was the trailing car. Lead car however took a defense line in long decreasing radius turn. Normal line allows one to slip up the inside and pass. Racing defensive line is to hug the inside wall forcing the guy to run the outside which only works if you can carry ALOT more speed. These days I would approach that situation differently forcing him to change up his defensive approach. However back then what he did worked perfect as I new no other way to pass him. Remember both cars had same hp, same weight and same tires.



You completely missed the context. I was talking abou when to let a faster car pass vs when to just take your line and forget about them. If clearly faster non-class car is going to pass me, which happens often when you drive low hp car, I will not race them. I will let them pass. However there is a point at which I need to commit to my turn in and will take the apex. If that faster car has not gotten to me in time I will take my line. Where this point is depends on the positions and closing rates. That was my point.

If I am racing for position things change. The closing rates are generally very slow and it is a much more static deal. Even so I have yielded entire corners were the trailing car has bumper overlap simply because they have some momentum and I know holding on for a side by side is just not going to work. Now If car racing me has 6" overlap and zero speed difference chances are they will need to back out. They have not established position and just trying a fake move. There are many many times I have stuck nose in and had it choopped off. If I leave a car width of space I have given up the corner.


When racing I will position my car in anticipation of the competitor move. If I think they will try to go down the inside it will defend the inside. The lead car cannot wait for the move to go defensive. They must go defensive before any move to stop the pass before it even starts.

It is never that simple. Who has the advantage is not as clear as who gets on the power sooner. It depends greatly on what corners are coming up next. There are times just being front is enough because the track does not allow for passing in the next 3 corners. Thus giving you time to get your speed back. Others is becomes critical where you in relation to the next corner rather speed to the corner. In other places you simply park the car mid corner forcing the trailing car to slow to your apex speed Then you control the drag race to next corner by not allowing them to carry more speed.


To me racing is all about car positioning. Put your car in a superior position on track to either pass then then drive away or pass a car that is faster than you and cleanly maintain them behind you. Driver skill needs to sort it out and skill includes the ablity to run fast consistant laps and the ability to make passes and defend against passes.

renvagn

_++1 to Early Apex, Flying Finn

winders

Racing is not about lap times. It's about going fast enough and being crafty enough to be beat your opponents. Actual lap times mean nothing. You don't win the race because you had the fastest lap time in the race. You win the race because you had the fastest race time.

Maybe that is racing to you. But, you aren't every one. That is an aspect of racing to enjoy. But the goal is to win, or finish as high as you can, within the letter of the rules. I, personally, would add "within the spirit of the rules" as well but that does not concern all racers. I want to be faster than my opponents and don't want to be side by side any more than I have to be.


No excuse for that and you should be sorry. If you have a problem with someone's driving, take them task in person directly or through the race director. Not by wrecking them. Wow.....

Scott

PedroNole

That was awesome!! The cars looked like something out of the Mad Max movies...

Rich Sandor

Lolaman, the corners don't sort out who the winners are. The drivers and the cars sort out who the winners are.

DE lines are "safe and slow" lines, designed to keep you facing the right way at all times. There is no such thing as a 'Racing' line 'per say'. As VR said there are fast lines and slow lines.

From my very limited racing experience, I'd say do your best to drive the fastest cleanest lines possible. Don't change your lines when a much faster car comes up behind you. If he is truly that much faster, he WILL find a way around you eventually, without you having to do anything except maybe give a little room once he puts his nose right up beside yours.

Now, if there are only a few laps to go, and a BARELY faster car has caught up to you, I think it's acceptable to change your car placement just a tad to make sure he doesn't dive bomb you. Not 'blocking' but rather a more defensive line that prevents him from passing unless you make a mistake.

But if you look at F1 for example, you rarely see cars being super defensive, because if they are, it slows down their line and speed so much that the faster cars just go around them on the outside.

If I catch up to slower drivers, and they start to block, I actually find it way easier to get by them. The hardest drivers to pass are the ones that are driving perfect, fast lines, even with traffic behind them.

ProCoach

^^this^^

My point, exactly.

winders

F1 is a bad example. The only time passing is relatively easy is with the help of DRS. We've seen some interesting "super defensive" moves at starts and in the DRS zones this year. Outside of DRS zones, you have to be MUCH faster to make a pass on a driver not making a mistake or take a big risk.

If the aero packages didn't protect the F1 driver in front so much, I can guarantee we would see some super defensive lines. Just like we did back in the 70's.

Scott

consolidated

Hey Mike,
I was in the pit next to you in the purple 914. Harris Hill is particular in that the taught DE line is usually a wide and late entry thru many of the corner, T4,5,7,10 because the are either off camber, decreasing or second gear. I hope I wasn't one of the dive bombers.

Regarding a DE line, to a less skilled driver they just see open track at entry and go for it not knowing what to do once they get there and are going too fast, this is typical in Chump/Lemons.

To a more experienced racer, if they see someone using a wide, late, straight line braking DE line they will pounce, and can trail brake to the inside and hold a minimum radius thru the corner while passing.

You guys drove well, hope to see you for the November race there.

onefastviking

Ok, I'm picking on one instance ? Seriously ??? You asked for it so here ya go, a quick search and this is what I find of the talent at Lemons. Now, I'm sure most of these can be blamed on car issues and not drivers issues, it's never the drivers fault.
I also like cars with no windows,tops, hoods, trunks, as well as no arm restraints, no barriers for fire in 20,30+ year old "junk" $500 cars. Should I go on ? It's fun for many people, it's just not something I want to be part of.
I think you will see a few instances the OP is referencing to in these videos. No doubt that "real" racing is different than DE; and LeMons,Chump, etc are an even much more different talent.

I must say they are kinda funny watch, but I am a Darwinism believer also.

Sterling Doc

There is a time for all different strategies. This especially plays out in spec racing, as closing speeds are slow, and things develop more slowly. If you've made a minor error coming out of a corner, costing you 2MPH to the guy behind you, he will be up beside you by the next braking zone, but he's not there yet - still behind you. You have a choice to make him take his shot on the inside, or the outside. The "fast" line says you should be on the outside, giving your competitor the inside. IMO the "racing line" for the corner would be go to the inside, where you can control his turn in (when you are side by side), and thus the corner. From that position, you can make him slower than you, as you pick up the ideal line, and force your competitor to square off the outside of the corner. You've given him "racing room", just not where he wanted. You've just neutralized his advantage.

You won't get away with this forever with an experienced racer behind you, but if you don't make many mistakes, you don't have to. Defensive lines like that are a part of good racers bag of tricks. When it happens to me, that racers gets my grudging admiration. When I pull it off on somebody else, its gratifying. Like a good bluff in poker, it's part of the game, if done well.