DE Lines vs Racing Lines
10-19-2011, 09:00 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
The first line defense in a corner, esp. in a momentum car, is to occupy the space that will allow you to reach the apex and track out more quickly. Unless you are qualifying abandon all DE thoughts about a "line". Learn the track and not a "line". There is no racing line anyway. Even better -- turn-in early, ride the corner until the apex and then track out. You will be "using" (not blocking) the entire turn leaving the guy behind you, behind you.
In DE we are told that turning- in early will result in leaving the track when tracking out. And in DE-style driving this is true. Who here has not enjoyed some fine agricultural sightseeing? We treat the inside of the corner as a single point which it really is not. Look at a corner.
There is lots of nice driving space around the apex. Brake early, turn-in early, get on the throttle early, ride the inside until you leave the corner at that apex, track-out in the usual fashion. You will have prevented anyone passing you by owning the corner real estate. And you will be much faster out of the corner because you have occupied the apex thus an assured track-out and you've been on the throttle since your turn-in. Which is key for a momentum car.
Just remember that turning in early is ok as long as you still hit the apex. You can try to beat your opponent but you can't beat physics.
And, in a real race at least, you are only competing with cars in your class. I don't agree with purposely hindering a car in a faster class. Don't put your 924 in the way of a Cup car. Pull out your DE knowledge on this one. It is easy to gauge speeds on a track if you know the cars and there are a lot of hand signals during a race. Get rid of what is rapidly approaching in your rear view mirror and chase the car in your class who is in front of you. Maybe the guy ahead of you will spend too much time looking at the Cup car in his rear view mirror and you'll catch up!
-- mindy
In DE we are told that turning- in early will result in leaving the track when tracking out. And in DE-style driving this is true. Who here has not enjoyed some fine agricultural sightseeing? We treat the inside of the corner as a single point which it really is not. Look at a corner.
There is lots of nice driving space around the apex. Brake early, turn-in early, get on the throttle early, ride the inside until you leave the corner at that apex, track-out in the usual fashion. You will have prevented anyone passing you by owning the corner real estate. And you will be much faster out of the corner because you have occupied the apex thus an assured track-out and you've been on the throttle since your turn-in. Which is key for a momentum car.
Just remember that turning in early is ok as long as you still hit the apex. You can try to beat your opponent but you can't beat physics.
And, in a real race at least, you are only competing with cars in your class. I don't agree with purposely hindering a car in a faster class. Don't put your 924 in the way of a Cup car. Pull out your DE knowledge on this one. It is easy to gauge speeds on a track if you know the cars and there are a lot of hand signals during a race. Get rid of what is rapidly approaching in your rear view mirror and chase the car in your class who is in front of you. Maybe the guy ahead of you will spend too much time looking at the Cup car in his rear view mirror and you'll catch up!
-- mindy
10-19-2011, 09:20 AM
#18
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There is also a difference between a defensive line and just maintaining your fastest line. When being overtaken by a faster class car, the objective should be to hinder him the least while maximizing your speed and the risk to both of you. To optimize that for both parties takes quite a bit of awareness and thought on both drivers part in a very short period of time and is a learned skill like all others. That's why it's so advantageous to know the people that you are racing with / against.
But he is Chump Car Racing, so there is no higher class out there with him.
10-19-2011, 09:41 AM
#20
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I'm with VR. There's are fast lines and slow lines. There is no question taking any sort of defensive line slows you down. The only truly defensive line is one that makes the passing car have to take the LONG way around. Defensive lines pull in a WHOLE bunch of bad habits, like looking in the mirror too much.
If you're going as fast as you should be going, braking where and how you should, there shouldn't be a problem. In order to catch and pass anyone even remotely close in times, you have to drive qualifying laps. Perfect laps.
Besides, defensive line driving results more often in mistakes by the people that do it because there is no "system" for car placement, it's just fluid and dependent on outside influences.
I also think that, adopted as a methodology anywhere other or more frequently than the last lap of a feature race, it's a moral and ethical failing. <grin> It's for those that can't do any better.
If you're going as fast as you should be going, braking where and how you should, there shouldn't be a problem. In order to catch and pass anyone even remotely close in times, you have to drive qualifying laps. Perfect laps.
Besides, defensive line driving results more often in mistakes by the people that do it because there is no "system" for car placement, it's just fluid and dependent on outside influences.
I also think that, adopted as a methodology anywhere other or more frequently than the last lap of a feature race, it's a moral and ethical failing. <grin> It's for those that can't do any better.
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www.peterkrause.net
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Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
10-19-2011, 10:40 AM
#21
Race Director
First problem... Chump car is not racing. Not really racing in sense of having actual skilled racers on track. There are certainly some, but there also alot of people who have never been to DE and will drive any place.
Don't make the mistake to thing that type of driving any of junk car series is similar to real racing. As soon as these series require proper competition license I will change my tune.
Now as for real racing vs DE.... There is a difference in the lines.
DE is first about being safe on the track. Lines taught are to be safe and smooth. Fast is nice, but instructors and schools will teach a line that will keep drivers with limited skills on the track. So straight line braking and late apexs tend to be safer and taught.
As you progress in DE and you car control skills improve you can adjust the lines to maximize speed. This means often taking a line with more risk. You will start braking in corners and taking earlier axpes leaving less margin on track out. Speeds increase and skills needed to execute increase. This evolves in to a "qualfying line". Or a line that is all about low lap times overall.
When you race you being to understand that it is not about the lowest lap time, but about position on track. So there are times when you need to slow the car down and increas your lap time to maintain position. Some times this can be pretty clearly defending position. Others times it mean slowing certain parts of the track where passing is hard to maximize speed down a straight to prevent a pass. So you may chose to take a slower entry and a later apex to ensure higher top speed down the straight to prevent a pass. When racing you use all the road not just the line and often times you need to change things up. Of course there are times in racing when you use the qualfying line because what you need is cut fast lap after fast lap. It all depends on where you are on track.
Now on out of class traffic...
I drive a slow momentum car in spec class. I have raced on track with all sorts of fast cars and have been pass more times than I can count. I have been in tight neck and neck battles only to have faster traffic that was in a race of it is own come pass. Dealing with faster traffic is learned skill. It is not easy. In general you want fast cars to pass you on a straight long before the corner. This allows them to take the turn as they wish and for you to do the same. When that happens is ideal. Alot of times it does not happen that way. So from here you want to let the fast car by in way that it minimizes your change in apex speed.
The next best place is in brake zone where you let them have the inside and delay turn in to tuck in right behind them. Smartly done you can even pass competitor this way by follow in the hole the faster car makes.
However becareful I have seen many many faster cars pass just before brake zones and then rather than stay to the inside which I freely give them they just right back in front of me on my line. Often times I have to check up hard since my braking point is in deeper than theirs due my low speed. Not much I can do other than be ready for it.
At some point I reach my turn in point (normal fast turn in not a defensive one) and once I do if a faster car not in passing position just yet... Sorry charlie.. you wait. I will not give up an apex unless the car is right there. If they are too far back as turn in I wil take the apex. I never want to go side by side with fast car with me on the outside. Pointless really. If at Mid corner he wants the outside then so be it. He can have it and will give room at track out. If not wait till the next straight where I will gladly give a point by.
In practice I try to give the fast guys a point by whenever possible. I want them to see my car and be confortable with what I am going to do. Point bys help tell them that I see them and will give them room. It allows them to make the move faster not compromising their speed. It also make it more obvious that when I don't point by I may not give them room. Despite my lack of HP there are places on track where I am running very similar apex speed to the fast cars and they need to understand that.
In end dealing with traffic is always complex. Some times you can get it right another you get it wrong and it kills your momentum. I have had racers where due to non-class traffic I have been able to pass competitors and have had other races ruine by non-class traffic (both faster and slower). Alot of time its is the luck of the draw. Last race I was in close battle for class lead. Then we both came on 2 slower Rx-7s. Class learder caught them on the straight and it hardly slowed him down. I caught them right at end of brake zone, but too late to make a pass move. Due to the track I had wait another mile before I could make clean safe pass. I lost 2 seconds waiting... They did nothing wrong and I was not about to force my way through to make stupid move. Just bad luck on when I caught them. Happens sometimes...
Don't make the mistake to thing that type of driving any of junk car series is similar to real racing. As soon as these series require proper competition license I will change my tune.
Now as for real racing vs DE.... There is a difference in the lines.
DE is first about being safe on the track. Lines taught are to be safe and smooth. Fast is nice, but instructors and schools will teach a line that will keep drivers with limited skills on the track. So straight line braking and late apexs tend to be safer and taught.
As you progress in DE and you car control skills improve you can adjust the lines to maximize speed. This means often taking a line with more risk. You will start braking in corners and taking earlier axpes leaving less margin on track out. Speeds increase and skills needed to execute increase. This evolves in to a "qualfying line". Or a line that is all about low lap times overall.
When you race you being to understand that it is not about the lowest lap time, but about position on track. So there are times when you need to slow the car down and increas your lap time to maintain position. Some times this can be pretty clearly defending position. Others times it mean slowing certain parts of the track where passing is hard to maximize speed down a straight to prevent a pass. So you may chose to take a slower entry and a later apex to ensure higher top speed down the straight to prevent a pass. When racing you use all the road not just the line and often times you need to change things up. Of course there are times in racing when you use the qualfying line because what you need is cut fast lap after fast lap. It all depends on where you are on track.
Now on out of class traffic...
I drive a slow momentum car in spec class. I have raced on track with all sorts of fast cars and have been pass more times than I can count. I have been in tight neck and neck battles only to have faster traffic that was in a race of it is own come pass. Dealing with faster traffic is learned skill. It is not easy. In general you want fast cars to pass you on a straight long before the corner. This allows them to take the turn as they wish and for you to do the same. When that happens is ideal. Alot of times it does not happen that way. So from here you want to let the fast car by in way that it minimizes your change in apex speed.
The next best place is in brake zone where you let them have the inside and delay turn in to tuck in right behind them. Smartly done you can even pass competitor this way by follow in the hole the faster car makes.
However becareful I have seen many many faster cars pass just before brake zones and then rather than stay to the inside which I freely give them they just right back in front of me on my line. Often times I have to check up hard since my braking point is in deeper than theirs due my low speed. Not much I can do other than be ready for it.
At some point I reach my turn in point (normal fast turn in not a defensive one) and once I do if a faster car not in passing position just yet... Sorry charlie.. you wait. I will not give up an apex unless the car is right there. If they are too far back as turn in I wil take the apex. I never want to go side by side with fast car with me on the outside. Pointless really. If at Mid corner he wants the outside then so be it. He can have it and will give room at track out. If not wait till the next straight where I will gladly give a point by.
In practice I try to give the fast guys a point by whenever possible. I want them to see my car and be confortable with what I am going to do. Point bys help tell them that I see them and will give them room. It allows them to make the move faster not compromising their speed. It also make it more obvious that when I don't point by I may not give them room. Despite my lack of HP there are places on track where I am running very similar apex speed to the fast cars and they need to understand that.
In end dealing with traffic is always complex. Some times you can get it right another you get it wrong and it kills your momentum. I have had racers where due to non-class traffic I have been able to pass competitors and have had other races ruine by non-class traffic (both faster and slower). Alot of time its is the luck of the draw. Last race I was in close battle for class lead. Then we both came on 2 slower Rx-7s. Class learder caught them on the straight and it hardly slowed him down. I caught them right at end of brake zone, but too late to make a pass move. Due to the track I had wait another mile before I could make clean safe pass. I lost 2 seconds waiting... They did nothing wrong and I was not about to force my way through to make stupid move. Just bad luck on when I caught them. Happens sometimes...
Last edited by M758; 10-19-2011 at 11:02 AM.
10-19-2011, 11:23 AM
#23
10-19-2011, 11:40 AM
#24
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Don't make the mistake to thing that type of driving any of junk car series is similar to real racing. As soon as these series require proper competition license I will change my tune.
<snip>
When you race you being to understand that it is not about the lowest lap time, but about position on track.
<snip>
I will not give up an apex unless the car is right there. If they are too far back as turn in I wil take the apex. I never want to go side by side with fast car with me on the outside. Pointless really. If at Mid corner he wants the outside then so be it.
Secondly, the last time I checked, racing is ALL ABOUT lap time. If your lap time is right, track position takes care of itself. That's why they don't give out trophies based on qualifying!
Lastly, if YOU don't have intentions of "leaving racing room" through the corner, YOU are blocking, period. I will drive around you on the outside, gladly.
Disappointing. This whole debate about "real racing," "whose line it is" and spreading a mistaken, unsound and UNSUPPORTED BY DATA methodology that blocking masquerading as "defensive driving" is a legitimate tool cheapens the whole thing...
YMMV, and clearly, it does.
10-19-2011, 11:41 AM
#25
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I'm with VR. There's are fast lines and slow lines. There is no question taking any sort of defensive line slows you down. The only truly defensive line is one that makes the passing car have to take the LONG way around. Defensive lines pull in a WHOLE bunch of bad habits, like looking in the mirror too much.
If you're going as fast as you should be going, braking where and how you should, there shouldn't be a problem. In order to catch and pass anyone even remotely close in times, you have to drive qualifying laps. Perfect laps.
Besides, defensive line driving results more often in mistakes by the people that do it because there is no "system" for car placement, it's just fluid and dependent on outside influences.
I also think that, adopted as a methodology anywhere other or more frequently than the last lap of a feature race, it's a moral and ethical failing. <grin> It's for those that can't do any better.
If you're going as fast as you should be going, braking where and how you should, there shouldn't be a problem. In order to catch and pass anyone even remotely close in times, you have to drive qualifying laps. Perfect laps.
Besides, defensive line driving results more often in mistakes by the people that do it because there is no "system" for car placement, it's just fluid and dependent on outside influences.
I also think that, adopted as a methodology anywhere other or more frequently than the last lap of a feature race, it's a moral and ethical failing. <grin> It's for those that can't do any better.
10-19-2011, 12:21 PM
#26
Drifting
Thread Starter
Here's a result of a failed dive bomb on our car. turn #5 H2R.
A PCA Club Racer was driving at the time.
Amazingly it did nothing but cosmetic damage to us.
The car ran great afterwards.
The offending car didn't fare as well.
To be clear -- I even give pass by's on track during the races.
If I know someone's on my tail pipe and isn't likely to get around
cleanly -- or there are a group of guys consistantly running the same
speed and the first one gets by -- no problem.
My discussions here are the guys so far back you have a hard
time believing they could possibly attempt a dive bomb -- yet still do.
Chumpcars != PCA DEs :-)
There are corners I can run flat out, there are also corners our car is better
suited for a late apex and getting in the gas to lengthen the straight.
My apologies for non-Texas folks but....
Examples,
8, 10(somewhat), 13 at TWS CCW.
(8 can be early apexed as well --- but that is still DB danger)
5,7,10 at H2R
BTW, I totally appreciate all the posts -- its part of the learning process for us.
Mike
A PCA Club Racer was driving at the time.
Amazingly it did nothing but cosmetic damage to us.
The car ran great afterwards.
The offending car didn't fare as well.
To be clear -- I even give pass by's on track during the races.
If I know someone's on my tail pipe and isn't likely to get around
cleanly -- or there are a group of guys consistantly running the same
speed and the first one gets by -- no problem.
My discussions here are the guys so far back you have a hard
time believing they could possibly attempt a dive bomb -- yet still do.
Chumpcars != PCA DEs :-)
There are corners I can run flat out, there are also corners our car is better
suited for a late apex and getting in the gas to lengthen the straight.
My apologies for non-Texas folks but....
Examples,
8, 10(somewhat), 13 at TWS CCW.
(8 can be early apexed as well --- but that is still DB danger)
5,7,10 at H2R
BTW, I totally appreciate all the posts -- its part of the learning process for us.
Mike
Last edited by txhokie4life; 04-21-2015 at 03:17 PM.
10-19-2011, 12:36 PM
#27
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10-19-2011, 12:41 PM
#28
Drifting
Thread Starter
First problem... Chump car is not racing. Not really racing in sense of having actual skilled racers on track. There are certainly some, but there also alot of people who have never been to DE and will drive any place.
Don't make the mistake to thing that type of driving any of junk car series is similar to real racing. As soon as these series require proper competition license I will change my tune.
Now as for real racing vs DE.... There is a difference in the lines.
DE is first about being safe on the track. Lines taught are to be safe and smooth. Fast is nice, but instructors and schools will teach a line that will keep drivers with limited skills on the track. So straight line braking and late apexs tend to be safer and taught.
As you progress in DE and you car control skills improve you can adjust the lines to maximize speed. This means often taking a line with more risk. You will start braking in corners and taking earlier axpes leaving less margin on track out. Speeds increase and skills needed to execute increase. This evolves in to a "qualfying line". Or a line that is all about low lap times overall.
When you race you being to understand that it is not about the lowest lap time, but about position on track. So there are times when you need to slow the car down and increas your lap time to maintain position. Some times this can be pretty clearly defending position. Others times it mean slowing certain parts of the track where passing is hard to maximize speed down a straight to prevent a pass. So you may chose to take a slower entry and a later apex to ensure higher top speed down the straight to prevent a pass. When racing you use all the road not just the line and often times you need to change things up. Of course there are times in racing when you use the qualfying line because what you need is cut fast lap after fast lap. It all depends on where you are on track.
Now on out of class traffic...
I drive a slow momentum car in spec class. I have raced on track with all sorts of fast cars and have been pass more times than I can count. I have been in tight neck and neck battles only to have faster traffic that was in a race of it is own come pass. Dealing with faster traffic is learned skill. It is not easy. In general you want fast cars to pass you on a straight long before the corner. This allows them to take the turn as they wish and for you to do the same. When that happens is ideal. Alot of times it does not happen that way. So from here you want to let the fast car by in way that it minimizes your change in apex speed.
The next best place is in brake zone where you let them have the inside and delay turn in to tuck in right behind them. Smartly done you can even pass competitor this way by follow in the hole the faster car makes.
However becareful I have seen many many faster cars pass just before brake zones and then rather than stay to the inside which I freely give them they just right back in front of me on my line. Often times I have to check up hard since my braking point is in deeper than theirs due my low speed. Not much I can do other than be ready for it.
At some point I reach my turn in point (normal fast turn in not a defensive one) and once I do if a faster car not in passing position just yet... Sorry charlie.. you wait. I will not give up an apex unless the car is right there. If they are too far back as turn in I wil take the apex. I never want to go side by side with fast car with me on the outside. Pointless really. If at Mid corner he wants the outside then so be it. He can have it and will give room at track out. If not wait till the next straight where I will gladly give a point by.
In practice I try to give the fast guys a point by whenever possible. I want them to see my car and be confortable with what I am going to do. Point bys help tell them that I see them and will give them room. It allows them to make the move faster not compromising their speed. It also make it more obvious that when I don't point by I may not give them room. Despite my lack of HP there are places on track where I am running very similar apex speed to the fast cars and they need to understand that.
In end dealing with traffic is always complex. Some times you can get it right another you get it wrong and it kills your momentum. I have had racers where due to non-class traffic I have been able to pass competitors and have had other races ruine by non-class traffic (both faster and slower). Alot of time its is the luck of the draw. Last race I was in close battle for class lead. Then we both came on 2 slower Rx-7s. Class learder caught them on the straight and it hardly slowed him down. I caught them right at end of brake zone, but too late to make a pass move. Due to the track I had wait another mile before I could make clean safe pass. I lost 2 seconds waiting... They did nothing wrong and I was not about to force my way through to make stupid move. Just bad luck on when I caught them. Happens sometimes...
Don't make the mistake to thing that type of driving any of junk car series is similar to real racing. As soon as these series require proper competition license I will change my tune.
Now as for real racing vs DE.... There is a difference in the lines.
DE is first about being safe on the track. Lines taught are to be safe and smooth. Fast is nice, but instructors and schools will teach a line that will keep drivers with limited skills on the track. So straight line braking and late apexs tend to be safer and taught.
As you progress in DE and you car control skills improve you can adjust the lines to maximize speed. This means often taking a line with more risk. You will start braking in corners and taking earlier axpes leaving less margin on track out. Speeds increase and skills needed to execute increase. This evolves in to a "qualfying line". Or a line that is all about low lap times overall.
When you race you being to understand that it is not about the lowest lap time, but about position on track. So there are times when you need to slow the car down and increas your lap time to maintain position. Some times this can be pretty clearly defending position. Others times it mean slowing certain parts of the track where passing is hard to maximize speed down a straight to prevent a pass. So you may chose to take a slower entry and a later apex to ensure higher top speed down the straight to prevent a pass. When racing you use all the road not just the line and often times you need to change things up. Of course there are times in racing when you use the qualfying line because what you need is cut fast lap after fast lap. It all depends on where you are on track.
Now on out of class traffic...
I drive a slow momentum car in spec class. I have raced on track with all sorts of fast cars and have been pass more times than I can count. I have been in tight neck and neck battles only to have faster traffic that was in a race of it is own come pass. Dealing with faster traffic is learned skill. It is not easy. In general you want fast cars to pass you on a straight long before the corner. This allows them to take the turn as they wish and for you to do the same. When that happens is ideal. Alot of times it does not happen that way. So from here you want to let the fast car by in way that it minimizes your change in apex speed.
The next best place is in brake zone where you let them have the inside and delay turn in to tuck in right behind them. Smartly done you can even pass competitor this way by follow in the hole the faster car makes.
However becareful I have seen many many faster cars pass just before brake zones and then rather than stay to the inside which I freely give them they just right back in front of me on my line. Often times I have to check up hard since my braking point is in deeper than theirs due my low speed. Not much I can do other than be ready for it.
At some point I reach my turn in point (normal fast turn in not a defensive one) and once I do if a faster car not in passing position just yet... Sorry charlie.. you wait. I will not give up an apex unless the car is right there. If they are too far back as turn in I wil take the apex. I never want to go side by side with fast car with me on the outside. Pointless really. If at Mid corner he wants the outside then so be it. He can have it and will give room at track out. If not wait till the next straight where I will gladly give a point by.
In practice I try to give the fast guys a point by whenever possible. I want them to see my car and be confortable with what I am going to do. Point bys help tell them that I see them and will give them room. It allows them to make the move faster not compromising their speed. It also make it more obvious that when I don't point by I may not give them room. Despite my lack of HP there are places on track where I am running very similar apex speed to the fast cars and they need to understand that.
In end dealing with traffic is always complex. Some times you can get it right another you get it wrong and it kills your momentum. I have had racers where due to non-class traffic I have been able to pass competitors and have had other races ruine by non-class traffic (both faster and slower). Alot of time its is the luck of the draw. Last race I was in close battle for class lead. Then we both came on 2 slower Rx-7s. Class learder caught them on the straight and it hardly slowed him down. I caught them right at end of brake zone, but too late to make a pass move. Due to the track I had wait another mile before I could make clean safe pass. I lost 2 seconds waiting... They did nothing wrong and I was not about to force my way through to make stupid move. Just bad luck on when I caught them. Happens sometimes...
Mike
10-19-2011, 12:44 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
10-19-2011, 12:55 PM
#30
Race Director
Defensive driving is racing. Racing is all about positioning your car on track to stay in the lead. Positioning means placing it were you have the advantage. If you cannot make a defense move in corner all it amounts to to glorified lapping.