944 Upgraded suspension. Now I want my camber back!
09-07-2011, 10:02 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
John,
I found an old thread on the 951 board where Sean Buchanan (JET951) was looking into upgrading brakes and figuring out whether to go to 87 spindles or stick w/ the existing 86 spindles and a-arms. At the time I had recommended against the partial conversion (thought it best to either stick w/ all early, or go to full late suspension). But another rennlister (DAR951), had made the conversion using 87 spindles/hubs with 86 arms to keep early offset.
Unfortunately, he explains the reason why the camber is limited, but does not explain what he did to remedy it. And DAR is no longer active on rennlist, so not sure you can contact him. Can try JET and see what he ended up doing.
If that is all correct, looks like you will have to modify the strut flange holes.
I like the tacked washer idea to limit the movement of the lower bolt once its slotted and positioned. Even over torquing my strut bolts by +10-15%, I have still had my camber go off during track events. So I now have to ensure the eccentric is bottomed out against the stops to keep from losing neg camber.
I found an old thread on the 951 board where Sean Buchanan (JET951) was looking into upgrading brakes and figuring out whether to go to 87 spindles or stick w/ the existing 86 spindles and a-arms. At the time I had recommended against the partial conversion (thought it best to either stick w/ all early, or go to full late suspension). But another rennlister (DAR951), had made the conversion using 87 spindles/hubs with 86 arms to keep early offset.
Unfortunately, he explains the reason why the camber is limited, but does not explain what he did to remedy it. And DAR is no longer active on rennlist, so not sure you can contact him. Can try JET and see what he ended up doing.
One thing not yet mentioned, that you will need to consider is offset.
While you can directly bolt-up any of the late-offset spindles you're considering to your early off-set control arms, doing so will reduce the maximum negative camber you can achieve.
Some of it can be "reclaimed" with camber plates, but unless you also "upgrade" to the longer arms (and then all that comes with that... bigger offset wheels, etc. etc.) you'll be limited to around 2 degrees (+/-) negative camber, if you run the stock bolts (with stock style camber adjusting struts) at full negative WITH plates also at full negative.
Made this change over the winter to my '86 race car... Not difficult, but lots of little stuff to do/consider to get it right and still allow for a reasonable range of adjustability to dial-in a setup.
While you can directly bolt-up any of the late-offset spindles you're considering to your early off-set control arms, doing so will reduce the maximum negative camber you can achieve.
Some of it can be "reclaimed" with camber plates, but unless you also "upgrade" to the longer arms (and then all that comes with that... bigger offset wheels, etc. etc.) you'll be limited to around 2 degrees (+/-) negative camber, if you run the stock bolts (with stock style camber adjusting struts) at full negative WITH plates also at full negative.
Made this change over the winter to my '86 race car... Not difficult, but lots of little stuff to do/consider to get it right and still allow for a reasonable range of adjustability to dial-in a setup.
The strut mounting holes in the late offset spindles are located differently in relation to each other to allow for a slightly different (sharper) angle of the strut, as dictated by the longer control arm... Keep that angle, but don't add the longer arm and now you have the hub standing up straighter (less camber).
I like the tacked washer idea to limit the movement of the lower bolt once its slotted and positioned. Even over torquing my strut bolts by +10-15%, I have still had my camber go off during track events. So I now have to ensure the eccentric is bottomed out against the stops to keep from losing neg camber.
09-07-2011, 11:00 AM
#19
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Jim, I appreciate the input. It confirms the situation I'm in. I also have had some problems losing my camber setting on the track. I now hit both bolts with an impact wrench set to "2". I have no idea how much torque that is but it seems to work. Someone on Rennlist tack welded the strut to the spindle to eliminate the problem. He grinds off the weld when he needs to remove the strut.
09-07-2011, 10:05 PM
#20
Drifting
Hi John,
Like Jim mentioned we used late modes non S spindles(stub axle) and hubs on our 86 with early steel control arms. We too had minimal negative camber with racers edge camber plates. We then slotted the top hole even more to allow more movement and used 12.9 grade bolts with hardened washes and nuts torqued to 150nm. so no more eccentric. The shock will not slip on the stub axle.
Since then our track cars now run motons and you cannot use the eccentric on them as there is no bracket on the strut for the eccentric to have effect on. so on all our cars we now just run the 12.9 grade bolt and tighten to 150nm. no more problems.
Sean
Like Jim mentioned we used late modes non S spindles(stub axle) and hubs on our 86 with early steel control arms. We too had minimal negative camber with racers edge camber plates. We then slotted the top hole even more to allow more movement and used 12.9 grade bolts with hardened washes and nuts torqued to 150nm. so no more eccentric. The shock will not slip on the stub axle.
Since then our track cars now run motons and you cannot use the eccentric on them as there is no bracket on the strut for the eccentric to have effect on. so on all our cars we now just run the 12.9 grade bolt and tighten to 150nm. no more problems.
Sean
08-09-2012, 09:06 PM
#22
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Hi all...
I'm posting this to an old thread in hopes of some further clarification. And for the record, I'm asking on behalf of a friend.
Anyway... he has a 84 NA car that's being built into a race car.
We have a full line of 951 parts in both early and late offset for both the front and rear.
The deal is that he want's to keep his early offset wheels and he will need at least 3* of negative camber in the front and rear.
The car will be running Bilstein Escorts w/o torsion bars.
Can I just bolt on all 86 turbo front suspension/hubs/struts/camber plates?
And for the rear... It seems that the 84 springs plates are different where they bolt up to the 951 control arm, thus I'm thinking that I'll need different spring plates.
What's the deal?
TonyG
I'm posting this to an old thread in hopes of some further clarification. And for the record, I'm asking on behalf of a friend.
Anyway... he has a 84 NA car that's being built into a race car.
We have a full line of 951 parts in both early and late offset for both the front and rear.
The deal is that he want's to keep his early offset wheels and he will need at least 3* of negative camber in the front and rear.
The car will be running Bilstein Escorts w/o torsion bars.
Can I just bolt on all 86 turbo front suspension/hubs/struts/camber plates?
And for the rear... It seems that the 84 springs plates are different where they bolt up to the 951 control arm, thus I'm thinking that I'll need different spring plates.
What's the deal?
TonyG
08-10-2012, 10:45 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
Tony, I think you'll need adjustable camber plates to get the -3 degrees up front, but the camber plates will bolt up no problem.
I don't know about turbo '86 spindles, but I can tell you that NA '86 spindles need to be modified before they'll work with the Bilstein struts. You'll need to machine 1.5mm off one of the mounting surfaces, and you'll have to elongate the lower hole on the strut.
The early NA driver's side spindles have the hole for the speedometer cable... so those are a little less strong than the '85.5 and '86 versions - which have the electrical pickup in the tranny.
I don't really have any experience with the early, steel rear suspension, but I imagine you'll want to transplant an '85.5 or '86 aluminum, early offset one in the car if you want to remove the torsion bars and keep the early offset. It's probably just easier to upgrade the torsion bars.
I don't know about turbo '86 spindles, but I can tell you that NA '86 spindles need to be modified before they'll work with the Bilstein struts. You'll need to machine 1.5mm off one of the mounting surfaces, and you'll have to elongate the lower hole on the strut.
The early NA driver's side spindles have the hole for the speedometer cable... so those are a little less strong than the '85.5 and '86 versions - which have the electrical pickup in the tranny.
I don't really have any experience with the early, steel rear suspension, but I imagine you'll want to transplant an '85.5 or '86 aluminum, early offset one in the car if you want to remove the torsion bars and keep the early offset. It's probably just easier to upgrade the torsion bars.
04-21-2018, 09:47 AM
#24
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Facing the same problem on another race car. On the last one I used a smaller grade 8 bolt and torqued the hell out of it. Anyone know a better solution?
