67King

Yes, I do it, but please get your story straight. You sit there and routinely contradict yourself.

Heel-toeing will enable the LSD to help you under braking. Whatever you call your method that you claimed to have perfected won't. Heel-toeing has your engine speed matching your wheel speed well before throttle application. Your method doesn't. Heel-toeing doesn't subject your car to unplanned weight transfer if you are off a little, your method does (see 3:13 with the Supra - oops!). The notion that your car would not be in gear with the clutch engaged (i.e. pedal out) at any point after turn in is just mind boggling. You are completely taking away one of the tools you have to control your car.

I can see that your method is easier for a person who isn't used to driving a manual, but otherwise, I don't get it. Like I said, having all of that power is often detremental to driver development. This sounds to me just like one of those situations.

Oh, and FWIW, I fidn the pedals in the 944's to be quite good for heel-toeing. Much better than any other car I've owned. Brake pedal is adjustable, gas pedal is floor mounted and angled towards the brake pedal. Sure I wouldn't mind it if the brake pedal were a tad bigger, but that is easy enough to fix.

333pg333

I'm sorry but if this guy is not you but you hold him up in high esteem I'm just not seeing it. I think he appears to be a bit slow coming into some corners. Sure I have no idea what the traction level and balance is like in that car, but there are times when I think he's rolling a bit too much. From what you're saying, he's staying in a high gear, braking hard, and then doing his downshifting when at a suitable speed. I'd like to see some back to back data to corroborate your theory. I'm not trying to pick holes in your viewpoint for the sake of it, just not seeing the advantage to the naked eye.

Oh, and I posted a video and I could be mistaken for actually doing what you say at the end of the short main straight, but in fact it was because I was on the 3rd lap on some brand new slicks that I'd never used before and was just over braking, but in general terms I've never had issues with heel/toeing on the 951. A larger throttle pedal can help some.

Jim Child

I've never had a problem heel and toeing in my 968 with the stock pedal setup, or in any of the 944's that I've driven and raced. I heel toe on 100% of my downshifts, but usually skip directly to the required gear without rowing through the gears in between. The OP can view my videos posted in the "Mid Ohio help" thread if he needs proof.

KluberNeocon

67King [ The notion that your car would not be in gear with the clutch engaged (i.e. pedal out) at any point after turn in is just mind boggling. You are completely taking away one of the tools you have to control your car.]

WHAT!? Mind boggling indeed....

Possibly go back and read what I've written. I dont "coast" anywhere on a racetrack ! Good grief !
I don't turn in with the clutch pedal depressed !

I'm not going to re-write it. It's all right there for you. Give it another two minutes for a re-read.

I will say this: some of the more thoughtful analysis I've read from a very few here have been pretty much spot on. My method can upset the platform setting up for the turn-in - more so than heel-toe.

My method doesn't work as well in the wet (water coming down) but it probably better under slick conditions.

My method , in theory , is harder on clutches - but only in theory.

My method is DEFINITELY harder on brakes , since I'm able to use them much harder and with better threshold control than the heel-toe crowd.

DM993tt

There is at least one RL member who knows how to wheel a hi-hp supra. I also think he knows something about heee/toe and hitting all the gears on the way down. I think the video speaks volumes. Skip to 1:12 for the in-car driving bits.

Potomac-Greg

When I see an innocuous topic go to three pages I usually check in to see why. Inevitably, someone has stepped deeply into it.

PS: I agree with the OP that downshifting through every gear can be tedious and not necessarily beneficial. If you're good enough to do it, I do not see downside.

That's an entirely different issue than heel-toe, which clearly has benefits and is not difficult. You can go from 5-to-3 deferring your downshift until your speed, with a solid blip of the throttle, allows you to release the clutch in 3rd gear. Then your drivetrain is engaged for the entirety of the turn, allowing you to use the throttle to get you through the whole corner.

PPS: I did heel-toe on my 944 almost from the first lap I had it on track (stock pedals). I found the setup to be perfect. And if you cannot control threshold braking while heel-toeing, then you just need to do it more (or you really do not have a workable pedal setup).

JoshuaB

I have had that same RL member drive my Supra on track with me as a passenger and there was a lot of super fast and super smooth heel and toe down shifting.

Here is one of my favorite videos with that same technique

67King

So are you saying, then, that you enter a second gear corner in fifth gear wit the engine lugging?

KluberNeocon

[So are you saying, then, that you enter a second gear corner in fifth gear wit the engine lugging?]

Uhhh...yyyeaaah that's what i'm saying. I mean that's what you read in my posts right? I run corners a "gear high" , I coast through corners with the clutch pedal depressed , lug the thing coming out...

What did you actually DO with those two minutes you used re-reading my posts I gratiously gave you?

Question 67King : are you telling me that you actually slide your car sideways coming into a braking zone to get slowed? That's my take-away from reading your posts. That and you apparently believe that tan interiors are faster than all other colors... again from reading your posts.
I mean... YOU wrote that stuff - can you back it up?

sweanders

Different situations require different techniques. But after a couple of 24 hour races on snow and ice I am pretty sure that all techniques are needed.

Sometimes sideways is fast, sometimes understeer is important to involve.

Looking at the video you posted not knowing that it is a high hp car the pedal treatment seems more like a wannabe drifter than someone trying to go fast around a track.

IMHO of course.

Btw, sorry for feeding the troll.

67King

Ah, I see what the problem is. You don't know what you are talking about. You leave it in high gear under braking, but do not depress the clutch. That is lugging the engine, though instead of the engine working at a low RPM to carry the weight of the vehicle, it is trying to overcome the force of the brakes. Only when you are ready to accelerate do you bother fiding the right engine.

Which is exactly what I said. ENTER (not exit, not at tip, not at apex) a corner in high gear with the engine lugging (against the force of the brakes).

You'd be better off dropping it into neutral or depressing the clutch. You'd find you could brake even deeper.

Anyway, the best advice I can give you is to go back to the ricer boards where the ability to shoud loudest, call people names, and apparently go searching for other posts by other people with whom you have an issue (really, I mean what gives with that - have you tried to find where I live so you can bug my house, too? creepy) are more valuable than actually knowing what you are talking about. Maybe they like the video game racer types better, too, or something, as I suspect beyond golf carts, that comprises the bluk of your experience.

Sterling Doc

^^^ @51 sec

To the OP - that is how it's done right, if you are good enough to pull it off.

I sometimes skip gears on the way down, but then, I'm just a 944 driver

Adam@Autometrics

Don't blame video games. Even in Forza Heel-and-toe shifting (with clutch) is faster.

And another example of a slow, waste of time, heel-and-toe technique.

Astroman

Tell us your name.

We're all amongst friends here.

sweanders

It's the Stig.