333pg333

I'm just curious about a few things you say. Not arguing with you and assuming you've had all those positive results backed up by datalogging. As far as a new technique goes I'm open ears. There was one time when we were all told to brake in a straight line. Now if you're not trail braking, you're losing.

So are you the driver here or is it someone else?

Are you not rev matching at all? It seems like you do occasionally but sometimes a bit hard to tell.

It would appear at the 3.13min mark that the driver loses control due to compression lock which might contradict what you're saying.

Just to understand what you're saying. Do you mean that instead of rowing down through the gears while heel / toeing you merely push the clutch in with the left foot, move the shifter into 2nd while braking with the right foot until you feel it's the right time to lift the left foot and let the engine rev out to it's natural rpm and continue to accelerate?

If this is the case I must say that to the naked eye the car doesn't seem to be going any faster into the braking zone than if you were heel / toeing. It seems that it's rolling with the clutch in and from appearances sake going no faster than if you were downshifting in the traditional way. Again, I'm not picking a fight, just asking out loud.

95m3racer

Yes, what he is saying is you start braking at 140mph in 6th gear at 7000rpm. Then at 50mph, at 2000rpm in 6th you push the clutch in, shift to 3rd, and release the clutch and your rpms magically shift to the rpm smoothly without any disurption in the drivetrain or tires.

This does not make sense, and you can see in the video (and I gauruntee in the data as well) that there is time being wasted and a delay between the time he needs to already be accelerating but instead is waiting for clutch to reengage. Best place to compare would be to incar footage from any leadin continental gs car - do you have any examples of leading professional drivers using this "technique?"

67King

Power does an awful lot to hamper driver development. Apparently that's not the only thing it has hampered here.

KluberNeocon

333pg333 - [Just to understand what you're saying. Do you mean that instead of rowing down through the gears while heel / toeing you merely push the clutch in with the left foot, move the shifter into 2nd while braking with the right foot until you feel it's the right time to lift the left foot and let the engine rev out to it's natural rpm and continue to accelerate? ]

Yes - almost. While some are rowing downwards thru the gears - everything you described - I don't have anything going on during that period except diving very deep and very fast towards my turn-in point. No clutch yet... just very heavy braking (that I began much later than those busy rowing).

As I slow and approach the trun-in I QUICKLY rip the downshift and almost simultaneously reingauge the clutch (left pedal out). There is NO period of coasting with the clutch depressed. This series of events contains very few actions compared yours - and when done right is begun and completed much much more quickly. You don't want to be wasting time out there right?!

This driver is not me - I don't know him but could help him perfect what he's doing. He's doing GREAT in my opinion. How much seat time does he have in this car?

Here's the painful reality: The majority of guys you ALL run against out there are NOT heel-toeing during the heat of battle.

Yet nearly 100% will criticize a guy like this Supra driver for not doing it.

Somebody post a youtube vid of a 944/951 driver showing the technique of heel-toe. Just one vid. We've got plenty here that can talk a good game of criticizing others. Lead the way...

Like any other technique - if you do it poorly it's crap. But assume it CAN be done as I describe. Assume that it's smooth as butter. Then add up all my required actions vs. all the heel-toe required actions.

Who's action can be completed more quickly? That's all I was ever sayin...

This is not new and I certainly did'nt invent it. I have perfected it however as have many many others. It's used by pro and amateurs all over the world and has been for decades.

The weird thing is that walking thu most any club racing pit - few will admit to it. It lacks the purity that club drivers and particularly Porsche drivers set as the gold standard. They're embarrassed to admit they do it!

Anyway... back to the youtube vid of the 944 heel-toe technique. Standing by.

KluberNeocon

I should clarify for 333pg333 :

When the single downshift is completed , you don't simply 'pop th clutch' and continue on.

You take your right foot off the brake pedal (all your slowing is done by now) and feed in gas pedal as you release the clutch pedal to smooth the transition and keep from shocking/dragging the rear tires.

It is butter

67King

I don't know of any 944 guys who keep cameras on their feet. But I know plenty who do it.

But here is a video of Boris Said doing a little heel-toe shifting.

Here's an Aussie V8 Supercar:

And actually, here's Ayrton Senna doing it:

KluberNeocon

No need for a camera viewing someone's feet. We've all got ears.

Do YOU do it 67King ? Any in-car vid w/ audio? Looking straight out the windsheild is fine...

My point is that it's damn near impossible to do well in a 944 because of pedal design coupled with a lousy throttle/butterfly ratio. Even w/ an aftermarket throttle cam - damn near impossible.

I'm CERTAIN there are a couple guys who can do it properly - meaning it adds to their performance. That probably covers them in their entirety. A couple.

I'm not at all certain that those couple guys are amongst the 44/51 drivers here that so freely dismiss another tried and true method of getting the job done.
When in fact they don't employ EITHER technique with any regularity - or results.

claykos

I agree your method is easier and allows more focus on braking. It is not faster if heel toe is done properly though (notice IF DONE PROPERLY). Your method also puts a lot of wear on the clutch. A small diameter multi plate race clutch will not last a season with your technique.

The compromise is to do one downshift skipping into the proper gear at the end of the brake zone but using a heel/toe blip to match revs rather than slipping the hell out of the clutch.

Oh and here's a few of my onboard videos. I'm not going to say I do it perfect and I might be able to brake more efficiently if I wasn't - but my clutches and gearboxes last awhile and I usually get around OK.

d15b7

hi. I'll join the discussion first -- very cool Supra!!!! I've driven one on track before (at Pocono North) and thought it was an awesome car (it was a stock TT).

here's a video of me in my Ford Probe GT racing at Summit Point (basically a Probe is a Mazda MX-6 with different bodywork): (very easy to hear the heel and toe; straight pipes V6 motor!):
I always heel and toe. always. sometimes i skip gears, and sometimes i row down through them; depends on the car, and the corner i am entering. this particular car has over 20k race miles on this clutch and transmission. it has to be shifted correctly, or it will 'crunch'; lots and lots of wear and use, but still going. I have 800lb F springs and 1100 lb rear springs. no front bar, and a big rear bar. this FWD car does not like to be 'shocked' while entering a corner; a signifigant lift or a rough downshift without match revving will cause it to snap oversteer very quickly; thus, i learned i had to match revs a long long time ago.

i agree that many of my competitors don't do it; but i do. it is a good skill to master. my everyday car, a mazda 626 V6 5 speed (exactly the same drivetrain as my Probe) -- i heel and toe every shift in it, every day (it has now 270k miles on it, original clutch and original trans). it is second nature to me; my muscles have memory of their own, and it is how i shift, period. that's how i reinforce my heel and toe, even during the winter months.

Todd
ReidSpeed

A.Wayne

You need to modifiy the pedals and for track use your pedals should be indexed , if done this is no problem ...

A.Wayne

Are you saying you have both pedals pressed at the same time ( clutch/ brake ) if so errrr........ No, Bad technique IMO...

sweanders

Why is the driver rolling into the turns and stabbing the throttle more than once?

333pg333

I've never had trouble with the stock 951 pedal arrangement for heel and toeing. Perhaps RHD cars are different?
The only thing with a stock 951 is that the crank and flywheel are quite heavy so occasionally if you go too deep into the corner
it takes just a fraction too long for the engine to rev up to the required rpms to match with the trans.

sweanders

I've never driven a RHD Porsche. But after getting used to the pedals I find no problems either.

I guess the two 944-drivers who can heel and toe have been found..

A lot of cars are easier to do it in, that is for sure!

333pg333

Lol, in actual fact the pedals in RHD 911's are offset and meant to be worse than LHD for pedalwork, but I've not heard of any differences with 944/51/68s.