Do I need to rebed new brake pads on previously bedded rotors?
04-05-2011, 11:04 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
VR...not your charts...LOL ya know.
I use to freak out about bedding in pads. I'd take a drive to this miles long deserted country road in the middle of no where to bed in the pads.
Now I just put them in and drive from Tampa to Sebring and drive at 6-7/10ths for the 1st session. After that everything feels great. I watched race teams at the 24hr put in new pads and go race or have new pads in the calpers and do a quick disconete on the caliper and go race. No bed in at all.
Speaking of pads...I'm itching to try something else besides Pagid...just to see if there is anything better. I'm thinking of either some PFC or Endless next time.
I use to freak out about bedding in pads. I'd take a drive to this miles long deserted country road in the middle of no where to bed in the pads.
Now I just put them in and drive from Tampa to Sebring and drive at 6-7/10ths for the 1st session. After that everything feels great. I watched race teams at the 24hr put in new pads and go race or have new pads in the calpers and do a quick disconete on the caliper and go race. No bed in at all.
Speaking of pads...I'm itching to try something else besides Pagid...just to see if there is anything better. I'm thinking of either some PFC or Endless next time.
I have zero experience with Endless, sorry...
04-05-2011, 11:05 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thx for all of your input. Much appreciated. One other question....the new rear pads are yellow rs 29's and the new front pads are yellow rs 19's. The set I replaced were all rs 29's. Pagid's site says the 29 have a bit more initial bite. Since I only do DE's, do you think I would even notice the difference between the two?
04-05-2011, 11:19 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
thats fine.
Im just razzing you VR.
Look, I had a little better experience with the blacks. but the oranges, you better bake them very well done!
However, the PFCs dont take much brake in. we are talking pagids, so thats where my comment came from. (because the OP is talking pagid) i dont think a few easly laps will do it, but certainly , a few laps of a decent pace will.
If you dont bed them, they will fail after a lap or two.
The oranges will lose almost all stopping capability if you dont cook those resins out. a couple of hard laps, a rest, is all you need.
So as you conclude with. Pagids should be bedded as instructed by the manufacturer, or as most racers do by common knowledge.
Im just razzing you VR.
Look, I had a little better experience with the blacks. but the oranges, you better bake them very well done!
However, the PFCs dont take much brake in. we are talking pagids, so thats where my comment came from. (because the OP is talking pagid) i dont think a few easly laps will do it, but certainly , a few laps of a decent pace will.
If you dont bed them, they will fail after a lap or two.
The oranges will lose almost all stopping capability if you dont cook those resins out. a couple of hard laps, a rest, is all you need.
So as you conclude with. Pagids should be bedded as instructed by the manufacturer, or as most racers do by common knowledge.
Nah, I have said my piece & am done. Just differing opinions. I have gone out on brand new Pagids in a client's race car where the previous pads were the same Pagids. While Pagids do take a bit more break in that PFC 01's or 06's (which are my preference, and which take none), a few easy laps were all it took to verify that the new pads had ditched all their compound release crap, were brought gently up to temperature, and were 100% good to go.
No charts, no graphs, just real world experience.
Pagid, of course, has to put stringent bedding instructions out there (just as PFC does), both for liability reasons & because it's better to be safe than sorry, especially with some folks who are less than fastidious about what combination of pads they use with the same rotors.
No charts, no graphs, just real world experience.
Pagid, of course, has to put stringent bedding instructions out there (just as PFC does), both for liability reasons & because it's better to be safe than sorry, especially with some folks who are less than fastidious about what combination of pads they use with the same rotors.
04-06-2011, 09:27 AM
#19
Mr. Excitement
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Just switched from PF-97 to PF-06. I have a light car with a 3.6 but still have the early 911 small brakes. Like PF-97 PF-06 has good cold torque but more torque than 97 while still modulating well. I kept the smooth predictable torque ramp up and down that the 97 pompound has but have more torque for a given pedal pressure. Bedded in one 20 min track session and remained unchanged in feel since.
04-06-2011, 10:37 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
Just switched from PF-97 to PF-06. I have a light car with a 3.6 but still have the early 911 small brakes. Like PF-97 PF-06 has good cold torque but more torque than 97 while still modulating well. I kept the smooth predictable torque ramp up and down that the 97 pompound has but have more torque for a given pedal pressure. Bedded in one 20 min track session and remained unchanged in feel since.
04-06-2011, 11:02 AM
#21
Lifetime Rennlist Member
I am with VR on this and I have bedded in a LOT of pads over the years. Realize that the published procedures are a combination of good practice AND (drum roll) CYA.
My general procedure on a street legal car is to take it on a fairly deserted highway section, cruise at 60-70mph while riding the brakes - moderate throttle. If you have e-gas, then accel to higher speeds and do some fairly hard slows to maybe 40mph. With throttle and brake I would do ~15 sec on and ~30 sec cool down. Do this 4-5 times then drive back using the brakes as little and lightly as possible.
If on track, Just built heat gradually (no threshold braking for a few laps). Get heat then drive with minimum braking to cool it all off.
BTW - The highway trick often works very well to eliminate shudder. What most call rotor warp is actually uneven pad deposits.
My general procedure on a street legal car is to take it on a fairly deserted highway section, cruise at 60-70mph while riding the brakes - moderate throttle. If you have e-gas, then accel to higher speeds and do some fairly hard slows to maybe 40mph. With throttle and brake I would do ~15 sec on and ~30 sec cool down. Do this 4-5 times then drive back using the brakes as little and lightly as possible.
If on track, Just built heat gradually (no threshold braking for a few laps). Get heat then drive with minimum braking to cool it all off.
BTW - The highway trick often works very well to eliminate shudder. What most call rotor warp is actually uneven pad deposits.
04-13-2011, 11:01 AM
#22
Instructor
Hopefully you guys can give me some good advice here. I have a 944 Turbo S with the Big Blacks up front. I use the car for DE's. During street duty I have some cheap Metal Masters, before an upcoming DE I switch them out with some Pagid Blacks about 5 days or so beforehand and use them lightly to try and scrub off the Metal Masters coating on the rotors. Getting to the track I'll find some back roads and drag the pads lightly to try to get some heat in them then perform around 6 medium to hard stops from 60/70 to 20 mph. After, I return to the track using the brakes as little as possible to cool them down. With this procedure I am still getting some pretty bad deposits on the rotors and get a lot of vibration. Anything I am doing wrong here? I drove around a week after the track with the Pagids still in to try and scrape the rotors clean but so far no success. Is the last resort to get the rotors cut and try again? Thanks for the help!
04-13-2011, 02:11 PM
#23
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^^^
After going through the switch to street pads procedure numerous times with about the same luck as you, I now leave Pagid orange or black in the calipers. My 911 ATE stock brake system stops better with little squeal. Easier on rotors and pads too, as no re-bed needed.
After going through the switch to street pads procedure numerous times with about the same luck as you, I now leave Pagid orange or black in the calipers. My 911 ATE stock brake system stops better with little squeal. Easier on rotors and pads too, as no re-bed needed.
04-13-2011, 06:14 PM
#24
Instructor
^^^
After going through the switch to street pads procedure numerous times with about the same luck as you, I now leave Pagid orange or black in the calipers. My 911 ATE stock brake system stops better with little squeal. Easier on rotors and pads too, as no re-bed needed.
After going through the switch to street pads procedure numerous times with about the same luck as you, I now leave Pagid orange or black in the calipers. My 911 ATE stock brake system stops better with little squeal. Easier on rotors and pads too, as no re-bed needed.
The only problem with the Pagids on the street is the squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel. Maybe it wont be as bad without the deposits all over the rotors. That, and they are much more expensive to replace than the PBR's.
04-13-2011, 06:56 PM
#25
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Fortunately, excess pad squeal is not what I experience. I agree with you about the expense of Pagid pads, but the rotor wear with either orange or black is unmeasurable where the pad compound is mostly ceramic. Metal compound pad is cheaper and wears harder on rotor. (I think)
04-13-2011, 07:25 PM
#26
Race Director
For thos of you that just leave Pagid or Performance Friction race pads in the car and drive on the street....how do you wash your wheels with out getting the pads wet or drive in the rain? I ask this because I've always been told and read ont he Pagid website that race pads can not get wet and maintain their performance.
Also my Pagids squeal like a city bus but I don't care...however I left my Pagid yellows in for a few weeks between track event s and drove to and from the track and on the street and they did not squeal at all this time....really odd...it was nice though. Not sure why this time they did not squeal.
Also my Pagids squeal like a city bus but I don't care...however I left my Pagid yellows in for a few weeks between track event s and drove to and from the track and on the street and they did not squeal at all this time....really odd...it was nice though. Not sure why this time they did not squeal.
04-13-2011, 09:25 PM
#27
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^^^
This is what I found regarding wet Pagid pads:
Racing Brake Pads and Humidity
When washing the car we recommend removing race brake pads or driving the car after washing and apply the brakes a few times in order to dry the brake pads. Water and even humidity of the air can slightly alter the friction behavior of racing brake pads. Some pro race teams use “storage” or “transport” pads and store the real race pads in a Zip-Lock bag until their next race.
This is the Pagid Home Page location of the reference.
http://www.braketechnology.com/techinfo.html
Valuable information here regarding temperature, wear, fade etc. Loyalty to Pagid pads is from the effort management goes to explaining how their product is designed to function.
This is what I found regarding wet Pagid pads:
Racing Brake Pads and Humidity
When washing the car we recommend removing race brake pads or driving the car after washing and apply the brakes a few times in order to dry the brake pads. Water and even humidity of the air can slightly alter the friction behavior of racing brake pads. Some pro race teams use “storage” or “transport” pads and store the real race pads in a Zip-Lock bag until their next race.
This is the Pagid Home Page location of the reference.
http://www.braketechnology.com/techinfo.html
Valuable information here regarding temperature, wear, fade etc. Loyalty to Pagid pads is from the effort management goes to explaining how their product is designed to function.
04-14-2011, 12:37 AM
#28
Race Director
Yep that is what I was reffering too. So if you drive in the rain or wash the car they are ruined???? Is this only for Pagid race pads or all race pads?
^^^
This is what I found regarding wet Pagid pads:
Racing Brake Pads and Humidity
When washing the car we recommend removing race brake pads or driving the car after washing and apply the brakes a few times in order to dry the brake pads. Water and even humidity of the air can slightly alter the friction behavior of racing brake pads. Some pro race teams use “storage” or “transport” pads and store the real race pads in a Zip-Lock bag until their next race.
This is the Pagid Home Page location of the reference.
http://www.braketechnology.com/techinfo.html
Valuable information here regarding temperature, wear, fade etc. Loyalty to Pagid pads is from the effort management goes to explaining how their product is designed to function.
This is what I found regarding wet Pagid pads:
Racing Brake Pads and Humidity
When washing the car we recommend removing race brake pads or driving the car after washing and apply the brakes a few times in order to dry the brake pads. Water and even humidity of the air can slightly alter the friction behavior of racing brake pads. Some pro race teams use “storage” or “transport” pads and store the real race pads in a Zip-Lock bag until their next race.
This is the Pagid Home Page location of the reference.
http://www.braketechnology.com/techinfo.html
Valuable information here regarding temperature, wear, fade etc. Loyalty to Pagid pads is from the effort management goes to explaining how their product is designed to function.
04-14-2011, 09:12 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
My track car is track only, no street, but I have never seen any pad degradation issue after tracking in rain or washing the car, I use PFC 06's currently, PFC 01's before that. In fact, I have never even heard of this issue with PFC's.
04-14-2011, 10:34 AM
#30
Lifetime Rennlist Member
Hopefully you guys can give me some good advice here. I have a 944 Turbo S with the Big Blacks up front. I use the car for DE's. During street duty I have some cheap Metal Masters, before an upcoming DE I switch them out with some Pagid Blacks about 5 days or so beforehand and use them lightly to try and scrub off the Metal Masters coating on the rotors. Getting to the track I'll find some back roads and drag the pads lightly to try to get some heat in them then perform around 6 medium to hard stops from 60/70 to 20 mph. After, I return to the track using the brakes as little as possible to cool them down. With this procedure I am still getting some pretty bad deposits on the rotors and get a lot of vibration. Anything I am doing wrong here? I drove around a week after the track with the Pagids still in to try and scrape the rotors clean but so far no success. Is the last resort to get the rotors cut and try again? Thanks for the help!
Sand the rotors to take the old pad material off. But use only garnet sandpaper. Never ever do this with black, aluminum oxide sandpaper - it simply creates its own deposits.