PCA Sprint Start Protocol in Rain
04-02-2011, 10:45 PM
#16
Drifting
Was it a 911 or a 944?
04-02-2011, 10:53 PM
#18
Drifting
04-02-2011, 11:16 PM
#20
I have seen entirely too much passing under yellow with PCA. If you see it and you have radios, call it in and have your crew tell the scruts in the pit. If you have video, show the steward after the race. I have seen stewards hand out penalties even after results are posted.
04-03-2011, 02:26 PM
#22
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Boston DMD, the radio protocol on the pace lap and the first lap of the race is for radio silence from the corners, unless their is a true emergency. Accordingly, at least during the pace lap, the driver making the passes under yellow would not have been reported by the corners until after the first lap.
The reasoning behind the protocol is that the steward does not want the radio net cluttered with extraneous conversations during what can be an incident filled and accordingly important period of time. Unfortunately, with radio nets, at least at most tracks no other radio can break in while one radio is talking. Some tracks the tower does have the ability to override other conversations but not all tracks have that feature.
Circuit Motorsports is absolutely correct. Once the split has occurred, that's your spot.
The corners may have had difficulty figuring out what the driver was doing, since there is so much dodging and weaving on a pace lap, particularly in wet conditions. They may have simply thought that the driver was retaking his position after having dropped back to try to heat up tires or whatever.
As an aside, the pace laps at many vintage races look like frickin' F1 pace laps. Frankly pretty comical.
As many have pointed out, this driver's conduct was BS.
Overtaking on the pace lap is not only against the rules but also dangerous, as I know I certainly would not be expecting anyone to pass me during the pace lap and if I was trying to get tire junk off my tires, could swerve into the passing driver unawares.
Post the video.
alternatively, send me a private email.
There is a possibility that the miscreant was dealt with a few laps after the green flag, as that would be when it should have occurred, if reported, but there's always the likelihood that it wasn't reported, for the reasons noted above.
A stupid, unsportsmanlike move.
The reasoning behind the protocol is that the steward does not want the radio net cluttered with extraneous conversations during what can be an incident filled and accordingly important period of time. Unfortunately, with radio nets, at least at most tracks no other radio can break in while one radio is talking. Some tracks the tower does have the ability to override other conversations but not all tracks have that feature.
Circuit Motorsports is absolutely correct. Once the split has occurred, that's your spot.
The corners may have had difficulty figuring out what the driver was doing, since there is so much dodging and weaving on a pace lap, particularly in wet conditions. They may have simply thought that the driver was retaking his position after having dropped back to try to heat up tires or whatever.
As an aside, the pace laps at many vintage races look like frickin' F1 pace laps. Frankly pretty comical.
As many have pointed out, this driver's conduct was BS.
Overtaking on the pace lap is not only against the rules but also dangerous, as I know I certainly would not be expecting anyone to pass me during the pace lap and if I was trying to get tire junk off my tires, could swerve into the passing driver unawares.
Post the video.
alternatively, send me a private email.
There is a possibility that the miscreant was dealt with a few laps after the green flag, as that would be when it should have occurred, if reported, but there's always the likelihood that it wasn't reported, for the reasons noted above.
A stupid, unsportsmanlike move.
04-03-2011, 03:20 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
I see this happen all too often when there is a car off track and the double yellow comes out, some drivers deciding that this is a wonderful opportunity to pass other cars who have correctly seen the flags and slowed the pace in order to assess what is the cause of the double yellow, the violators claiming to have missed the flags.
Please post the video. If annoyed paddock whisperings aren't enough to discourage flagrant offenders, then maybe showing the transgression to the widest possible audience might modify the future behavior of this particular individual as well as the attitude of other drivers.
Please post the video. If annoyed paddock whisperings aren't enough to discourage flagrant offenders, then maybe showing the transgression to the widest possible audience might modify the future behavior of this particular individual as well as the attitude of other drivers.
04-03-2011, 08:15 PM
#24
I see this happen all too often when there is a car off track and the double yellow comes out, some drivers deciding that this is a wonderful opportunity to pass other cars who have correctly seen the flags and slowed the pace in order to assess what is the cause of the double yellow, the violators claiming to have missed the flags.
Please post the video. If annoyed paddock whisperings aren't enough to discourage flagrant offenders, then maybe showing the transgression to the widest possible audience might modify the future behavior of this particular individual as well as the attitude of other drivers.
Please post the video. If annoyed paddock whisperings aren't enough to discourage flagrant offenders, then maybe showing the transgression to the widest possible audience might modify the future behavior of this particular individual as well as the attitude of other drivers.
That being said, I've also had times when I've had people pass me under double yellow and I'm CERTAIN that they should have recognized it (I checked up heavily and basically let them pass). That being said, these were people that I'm positive would not try to take advantage of the situation. In other words, they simply got focused on the car ahead of them and missed the double yellow (on some tracks, it really is hard to see).
Sure, those without sins can post some video... I'm willing to bet that most racers have either accidentally made illegal passes (or have made passes that others would consider questionable)
In the end, this IS gentleman racing. To that I mean that people shouldn't be deliberately passing under double yellow. However, if it does happen, give the person the benefit of the doubt. If it does happen, talk to the person, and let them know that they made a mistake. If it continues to occur, then go ahead and post it (or at least let the officials know)
04-03-2011, 08:36 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
This occurred during the first two warm up laps prior to the green. Looking back I wish I hadn't posted the the original question. Had a few glasses of wine that evening. I am not looking to cause anyone trouble. Just wanted to know if there is an unwritten gentleman's agreement that allows a faster/higher class car to move up in certain circumstances. I am sure it would not have happened were it not for the downpour, which put us single file rather than two-up for most of the the warm up laps. In my SCCA experience, many years ago, there wasn't any provision. I was just checking to see since this is gentleman's racing if things are different from my SCCA experience.
04-03-2011, 08:48 PM
#27
This occurred during the first two warm up laps prior to the green. Looking back I wish I hadn't posted the the original question. Had a few glasses of wine that evening. I am not looking to cause anyone trouble. Just wanted to know if there is an unwritten gentleman's agreement that allows a faster/higher class car to move up in certain circumstances. I am sure it would not have happened were it not for the downpour, which put us single file rather than two-up for most of the the warm up laps. In my SCCA experience, many years ago, there wasn't any provision. I was just checking to see since this is gentleman's racing if things are different from my SCCA experience.
However, I'll reiterate that I've had lots of passes on me when a yellow or double yellow has come out, and I've also passed someone (by accident - NEVER intentional) when a yellow or double yellow has come out. I've basically learned that a lot of people (including myself) get focussed on the car ahead of them and you need to at least guard the obvious passing opportunities until it is apparent that the flags are out.
With all of that being said, if you are driving around half the track and somebody is passing you, then yes, you should share that with the steward. However, I've also had times when I'm stuck behind some in a double yellow situation, and he basically decides to drive about 30MPH while the rest of the field leaves us behind and I'm stuck wondering what is the right thing to do (i.e, stay behind someone being deliberately slow, or passing that person under double yellow)
04-03-2011, 11:10 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
I think there is a BIG difference between passing one (or two depending on how close they are) and passing several groups of cars when the double yellow comes out. Granted, it shouldn't happen, but I've had a couple of times when I've been dicing with a few competitors and I happen to get a pass on when the double yellow happens, and to be honest, I didn't realize it until after I reviewed the tape. I'm CERTAIN that due to speeds involved, my competitors didn't realize it either.
That being said, I've also had times when I've had people pass me under double yellow and I'm CERTAIN that they should have recognized it (I checked up heavily and basically let them pass). That being said, these were people that I'm positive would not try to take advantage of the situation. In other words, they simply got focused on the car ahead of them and missed the double yellow (on some tracks, it really is hard to see).
Sure, those without sins can post some video... I'm willing to bet that most racers have either accidentally made illegal passes (or have made passes that others would consider questionable)
In the end, this IS gentleman racing. To that I mean that people shouldn't be deliberately passing under double yellow. However, if it does happen, give the person the benefit of the doubt. If it does happen, talk to the person, and let them know that they made a mistake. If it continues to occur, then go ahead and post it (or at least let the officials know)
That being said, I've also had times when I've had people pass me under double yellow and I'm CERTAIN that they should have recognized it (I checked up heavily and basically let them pass). That being said, these were people that I'm positive would not try to take advantage of the situation. In other words, they simply got focused on the car ahead of them and missed the double yellow (on some tracks, it really is hard to see).
Sure, those without sins can post some video... I'm willing to bet that most racers have either accidentally made illegal passes (or have made passes that others would consider questionable)
In the end, this IS gentleman racing. To that I mean that people shouldn't be deliberately passing under double yellow. However, if it does happen, give the person the benefit of the doubt. If it does happen, talk to the person, and let them know that they made a mistake. If it continues to occur, then go ahead and post it (or at least let the officials know)
You are right in that it shouldn't happen.
