F1 New Wing Technology DRS
#16
Rennlist Member
Hmm, I'm not so sure. I'd like to see it again. I think if he was doing it time and time again he would have had a lot more attention paid to this in the commentary box...and we had decent commentary down here, plus received a penalty.
#17
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
There are a couple of factors with the DRS that (IMHO) reduce it's effectiveness at helping to pass:
1: Dirty air vs Clean air. When you are drafting, the effect of the DRS is less than in open air. Restricting KERS to wannabe-passers instead of DRS would provide more passing entertainment, as using KERS in the draft provides more power than the drag that DRS elimates.
2: When the DRS is activated, especially in clean air, weight is removed from the rear, adding weight to the front, and a very partial increase in rake and therefore angle of attack, and therefore downforce, to the front wing, and therefore a small increase in induced drag from the front wing. DRS should do both front and rear wings, IMHO.
I do agree with Veloce Raptor though; F1 needs to simplify. The designs are overly complicated, and the rule books even moreso.
1: Dirty air vs Clean air. When you are drafting, the effect of the DRS is less than in open air. Restricting KERS to wannabe-passers instead of DRS would provide more passing entertainment, as using KERS in the draft provides more power than the drag that DRS elimates.
2: When the DRS is activated, especially in clean air, weight is removed from the rear, adding weight to the front, and a very partial increase in rake and therefore angle of attack, and therefore downforce, to the front wing, and therefore a small increase in induced drag from the front wing. DRS should do both front and rear wings, IMHO.
I do agree with Veloce Raptor though; F1 needs to simplify. The designs are overly complicated, and the rule books even moreso.
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#18
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
To be honest I also agree with those that feel that F1 is overly complicated. It's interesting from a technical view but also makes the races largely processional and quite frankly boring. The best part about the circus is qualifying which is now basically the most expensive Time Attack on the planet.
There are a couple of factors with the DRS that (IMHO) reduce it's effectiveness at helping to pass:
1: Dirty air vs Clean air. When you are drafting, the effect of the DRS is less than in open air. Restricting KERS to wannabe-passers instead of DRS would provide more passing entertainment, as using KERS in the draft provides more power than the drag that DRS elimates.
2: When the DRS is activated, especially in clean air, weight is removed from the rear, adding weight to the front, and a very partial increase in rake and therefore angle of attack, and therefore downforce, to the front wing, and therefore a small increase in induced drag from the front wing. DRS should do both front and rear wings, IMHO.
I do agree with Veloce Raptor though; F1 needs to simplify. The designs are overly complicated, and the rule books even moreso.
1: Dirty air vs Clean air. When you are drafting, the effect of the DRS is less than in open air. Restricting KERS to wannabe-passers instead of DRS would provide more passing entertainment, as using KERS in the draft provides more power than the drag that DRS elimates.
2: When the DRS is activated, especially in clean air, weight is removed from the rear, adding weight to the front, and a very partial increase in rake and therefore angle of attack, and therefore downforce, to the front wing, and therefore a small increase in induced drag from the front wing. DRS should do both front and rear wings, IMHO.
I do agree with Veloce Raptor though; F1 needs to simplify. The designs are overly complicated, and the rule books even moreso.
#2, do you think 100lbs of downforce in the rear, does any decernable ange of attach or ride height change in the rear? looks like a very minor change . at first glance its near equivilant to a 5 degree wing angle change on most of the big wing cars we run, which for our cars would be a lot.
#19
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Yes, the effect of 10lbs of drag at 380mph would be 10hp.
However, if the drag was 10lbs at 190mph, then it would be 100lbs at 380mph, or at a cost of 100hp to drive it. and, if the car had a top speed of 190mph aero limited, at 700hp, then at 380mph, the hp required to reach that top speed would be 5600hp.
However, if the drag was 10lbs at 190mph, then it would be 100lbs at 380mph, or at a cost of 100hp to drive it. and, if the car had a top speed of 190mph aero limited, at 700hp, then at 380mph, the hp required to reach that top speed would be 5600hp.
#20
Drifting
The DRS sure didn't look very effective in the draft, but I think it's big advantage is when the trailing car pulls out from the draft. The wall of air he hits won't be as severe and may make the pass a bit easier to complete.
#21
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
again, this wall of air is only worth 5hp to the dropping flap. as we saw, i dont hink this is eough to do anything in the passing relm. Vittel had run 1 second a lap faster than everyone else and didnt even use any of the new systems to his advantage. I think that drafting at 180mph has to be the only advantage they really need , and even that, doesnt alow for them to get that much more momemtium to make a pass on a road course. if they want more passing, get put some fenders over the tires and allow some bumping!
The "2nd move" has been going on for a number of years and is generally accepted in F1 racing. The first move is usually a sharp move towards the defensive line to cover the trailing car, then the trailing car switches back to the racing line and the leader slowly drifts wide again to setup the corner. I don't really like it, and I've wondered why the trailing car doesn't try to make this second move look more like a block by staying more inside.
The DRS sure didn't look very effective in the draft, but I think it's big advantage is when the trailing car pulls out from the draft. The wall of air he hits won't be as severe and may make the pass a bit easier to complete.
The DRS sure didn't look very effective in the draft, but I think it's big advantage is when the trailing car pulls out from the draft. The wall of air he hits won't be as severe and may make the pass a bit easier to complete.
#23
Drifting
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto, C eh! N eh! D eh!
Posts: 2,281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we should wait a few races to make a judgement call on DRS and KERS. Too early to really judge, and Albert Park is not the track that it would make a big difference. Think about the boring Tilke tracks with the long straights... they *MAY* help there... Malaysia should be interesting.
But despite some posts that claim differently, there was absolutely some passes this weekend that where made very easy because of the combination of the two. Button coming back up the grid comes to mind, I forgot who he passed, but he simply drove around him using KERS and DRS.
The problem I have with both DRS and KERS, is the pass seems so artificial... the driver just ends up driving around them before a corner, and the chance to defend is marginalized by the speed differential going into the breaking zone.
Perhaps F1 needs a competition yellow! LOL!
But despite some posts that claim differently, there was absolutely some passes this weekend that where made very easy because of the combination of the two. Button coming back up the grid comes to mind, I forgot who he passed, but he simply drove around him using KERS and DRS.
The problem I have with both DRS and KERS, is the pass seems so artificial... the driver just ends up driving around them before a corner, and the chance to defend is marginalized by the speed differential going into the breaking zone.
Perhaps F1 needs a competition yellow! LOL!
#24
Three Wheelin'
IMO some of this crap is 100% contrived BS. Way too complicated w/o a clear purpose.
Here's an idea, you pretentious FIA clowns: You want more passing? Make the front wing no larger than the rear wing, and single element only, make the rear wing single element only (like on a Cup car), and do away with ALL the other gizmos and aero aids. Oh, and drop the retarded turbo inline 4 idea because it will sound like ***.
Here's an idea, you pretentious FIA clowns: You want more passing? Make the front wing no larger than the rear wing, and single element only, make the rear wing single element only (like on a Cup car), and do away with ALL the other gizmos and aero aids. Oh, and drop the retarded turbo inline 4 idea because it will sound like ***.
I think everyone has missed the biggest point in this thread, VR and Kibort AGREE on something!
#25
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I wonder. they quoted the F1 engineers as saying 100lbs of downforce being shedded.
50mm opening, and a 3 ft long wing? I dont think it could be much more than that, do you? certainly by the lack of effect it had by side by side racing, i would say it might be pretty close to right on. If you look at the frontal area of an F1 car an calculate out its total drag figure, it cant be very much at say , 100 to 150mph during the passing zones as compared with the HP available.
heck, at 190mph for a street race car, 400hp is used to drive just the drag. F1s are probably half the frontal area, but 2x drag Cd. so call it around 800lbs of drag. 10lbs of reduction, isnt going to effect much, when another 400hp is free and available for acceleration over such a short distance and period of time.
50mm opening, and a 3 ft long wing? I dont think it could be much more than that, do you? certainly by the lack of effect it had by side by side racing, i would say it might be pretty close to right on. If you look at the frontal area of an F1 car an calculate out its total drag figure, it cant be very much at say , 100 to 150mph during the passing zones as compared with the HP available.
heck, at 190mph for a street race car, 400hp is used to drive just the drag. F1s are probably half the frontal area, but 2x drag Cd. so call it around 800lbs of drag. 10lbs of reduction, isnt going to effect much, when another 400hp is free and available for acceleration over such a short distance and period of time.
#26
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Think about PCA racing. A car that is 2 seconds a lap faster than you would probably not have to wait for more than a corner or 2, assuming that they just didn't blow by as they came up on you.
#27
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I think we should wait a few races to make a judgement call on DRS and KERS. Too early to really judge, and Albert Park is not the track that it would make a big difference. Think about the boring Tilke tracks with the long straights... they *MAY* help there... Malaysia should be interesting.
But despite some posts that claim differently, there was absolutely some passes this weekend that where made very easy because of the combination of the two. Button coming back up the grid comes to mind, I forgot who he passed, but he simply drove around him using KERS and DRS.
The problem I have with both DRS and KERS, is the pass seems so artificial... the driver just ends up driving around them before a corner, and the chance to defend is marginalized by the speed differential going into the breaking zone.
Perhaps F1 needs a competition yellow! LOL!
But despite some posts that claim differently, there was absolutely some passes this weekend that where made very easy because of the combination of the two. Button coming back up the grid comes to mind, I forgot who he passed, but he simply drove around him using KERS and DRS.
The problem I have with both DRS and KERS, is the pass seems so artificial... the driver just ends up driving around them before a corner, and the chance to defend is marginalized by the speed differential going into the breaking zone.
Perhaps F1 needs a competition yellow! LOL!
as far as KERS and DRS, you make the call. what had more of an effect, 10lbs of drag reduction, so say 5hp , or 80hp for push for pass button.
I agree. push for pass, driving around someone with 80 more hp, how is that racing. again i say, put on some fenders and lets see some rubb'n!
#28
Rennlist Member