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View Poll Results: Where do you shift your 996 3.6L street engine'd racer
shift at redline to maximize HP and acceleration on any straight
13
36.11%
shift at 300rpm below redline to save then engine and its "noise" anyway.
11
30.56%
I dont know, but want to learn how to maximize acceleration on any straight on the track.
1
2.78%
I dont know and dont care. Ill just do whatever VR says I should do.
11
30.56%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

996 3.6L street engine race car owners. Where do you shift?

 
Old 02-09-2011, 09:28 PM
  #61  
GT3 Techno
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
But that WASN'T the scenario.

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Your comment on the scenario (other thread) was:

"As he says, the 996 street motor generally makes more noise than power at the very top end of the range. I have spent some seat time in Spec 996 cars, and I find that my times are better if I generally upshift slightly short of redline. Plus, this is a bit easier on the equipment."

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Old 02-09-2011, 09:30 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by winders View Post
To be honest, with all the crap that has gone on, I don't recall the original scenario. But, as I said, I am not arguing absolutes here. I know there are good reasons to not shift at red line in certain situations.....

Scott
And that was my ONLY point (as with Pedro, Viking, et al).









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Old 02-09-2011, 09:32 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by GT3 Techno View Post
Your comment on the scenario (other thread) was:

"As he says, the 996 street motor generally makes more noise than power at the very top end of the range. I have spent some seat time in Spec 996 cars, and I find that my times are better if I generally upshift slightly short of redline. Plus, this is a bit easier on the equipment."

And....? Where is your confusion? The power graphs show the power falls off at the very top. So...where is your confusion?









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Old 02-09-2011, 09:41 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
And....? Where is your confusion? The power graphs show the power falls off at the very top. So...where is your confusion?

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I thought you were saying that accelerating down a straight wasn't the scenario where you would short shift. If you meant that you would recommend to do it so the car is not upset at turn-in or whatever other scenario involving weight transfer, etc., then all this is miscommunication I guess...

Edit: Sorry if I wasn't clear again... accelerating down a straight wasn't the scenario as compared to your initial suggestion to "generally" short shift.

Last edited by GT3 Techno; 02-09-2011 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:33 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
LMAO! Amazing how quiet the peanut gallery suddenly got here, eh?
I'm not going to comment further, I know what I've posted is correct. I couldn't really care if you agree or not, it's just another advantage I have against you and your clients. If you want to have an actual conversation then email me, but I'm not going to play the 'look at this video' and 'I have data but won't post it' game.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:59 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Greg Smith View Post
I'm not going to comment further, I know what I've posted is correct. I couldn't really care if you agree or not, it's just another advantage I have against you and your clients. If you want to have an actual conversation then email me, but I'm not going to play the 'look at this video' and 'I have data but won't post it' game.

Of COURSE you do, Greg.

I couldn't really care if YOU agree or not. When you and/or Mark get some seat time in cars running street-based 996 motors, you can rejoin this conversation with some credibility...just as I said at the outset of this...and then you will understand.

Until then, enjoy your Sour Grapes Club membership and your "advantage".

Too funny.








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Old 02-09-2011, 11:09 PM
  #67  
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I feel the exact same way Greg.

Do I post an answer that could help a number of RL'ers ?
Or
Keep my mouth shut and keep coaching guys that use the info and seem to go faster than most.
Debating with Mark, who is never wrong, is not even a considered option.
Or
Maybe I should just give a clue to why it works so those that are smart enough to figure it out and use the information can and will. - While others will follow those that sit online and type a lot about how much they know with no real experience, data, dyno time, time in other vehicles to prove or disprove what they preach. After all, if it's on the internet, or written somewhere it must be true........






Originally Posted by Greg Smith View Post
I'm not going to comment further, I know what I've posted is correct. I couldn't really care if you agree or not, it's just another advantage I have against you and your clients. If you want to have an actual conversation then email me, but I'm not going to play the 'look at this video' and 'I have data but won't post it' game.
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:12 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by onefastviking View Post
I feel the exact same way Greg.

Do I post an answer that could help a number of RL'ers ?
Or
Keep my mouth shut and keep coaching guys that use the info and seem to go faster than most.
Debating with Mark, who is never wrong, is not even a considered option.
Or
Maybe I should just give a clue to why it works so those that are smart enough to figure it out and use the information can and will. - While others will follow those that sit online and type a lot about how much they know with no real experience, data, dyno time, time in other vehicles to prove or disprove what they preach. After all, if it's on the internet, or written somewhere it must be true........
Ding ding ding! As usual, you and I are on the same page.









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Old 02-09-2011, 11:19 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by onefastviking View Post
Maybe I should just give a clue to why it works so those that are smart enough to figure it out and use the information can and will.
Sure !

As an Rennlister club race amateur, I thought that this forum was a good way to get useful info. May be I should look elsewhere (private coaching only ?) if the most experienced people here can't explain why this other person is wrong...
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:24 PM
  #70  
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...
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:27 PM
  #71  
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Here's my 996 that I run:
(stock gearbox with these ratios:
1st gear 3.818
2nd gear 2.20
3rd gear 1.516
4th gear 1.216
5th gear 1.024
6th gear 0.841
Final drive 3.444)

Since you're asking, I shift below redline for "theoretical longevity" reasons...

Last edited by garrett376; 01-09-2013 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:27 PM
  #72  
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Just so everyone that doesn't know VR and I understands ....... VR and I don't always agree.

We do share a common belief that trial and error with the support of data via in car data, dyno's, etc allow us to provide a better understanding of what works and why in the real world. Which ultimately allows us and our respective customers, students, and friends to see better ultimate results.

This whole thread reminds me of a conversation I once had with a (claimed) thermal engineer regarding why a car without a thermostat actually ran hotter than it had previously with a good thermostat.


Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
Ding ding ding! As usual, you and I are on the same page.









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Old 02-09-2011, 11:37 PM
  #73  
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There is a lot of useful info on here, but as racers are a competitive bunch you can't always expect them to just totally give away all their secrets. My recommendation would be to try both ways and see what works for you, in your car, on your tracks, and do it with data that can allow you to see without a shadow of a doubt which works best for you. - Ultimately, thats all that matters anyway.

I'm here for the friendship and because TV bores me. I coach a number of people, I maintain a number of cars, and I have also built a few cars over the years. I'm not here to advertise or get new customers or even inflate my head. Hell, I don't even have enough hair to cover my head now, I couldn't afford for it to get any bigger.

Have a good evening.


Originally Posted by GT3 Techno View Post
Sure !

As an Rennlister club race amateur, I thought that this forum was a good way to get useful info. May be I should look elsewhere (private coaching only ?) if the most experienced people here can't explain why this other person is wrong...
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:40 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by GT3 Techno View Post
Sure !

As an Rennlister club race amateur, I thought that this forum was a good way to get useful info. May be I should look elsewhere (private coaching only ?) if the most experienced people here can't explain why this other person is wrong...


I am sorry you got the wrong impression: I have no desire to explain why "this other person is wrong" not because I don't want to be informative, but because it will only generate another avalanche of enormous, overly wordy and condescending posts from him, usually 5 to 10 in a row. And none of us can take any more of that.

Here is what I suggest: look at the graph that garrett376 posted above (nice RWHP by the way!) and then email me, and I will give you my view of why in many cases upshifting a street based 996 motor short of redline can be much faster around a track: [email protected]

And then you can make up your own mind.








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Old 02-10-2011, 01:43 AM
  #75  
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Dave, I have said nearly a dozen times, and others here can back me up certainly it DOESNT always pay to redline or maximize HP in areas of a track where traction or control are an issue. we are talking straight line, and notice Darren on some of the key straights, pegging the rev limiter before braking zones off a straight..

You have proved you are not being careful enough to evaluate the data posted. here. by reading the graphs of HP curves, and there are many of them, It is HIGHLY unlkely that somehow YOUR 996s that you were driving had some other shapped HP curve. more than likely, they were even more peaky than on the dyno due to ram effect and cool air intake. regardless, you are double talking, forgetting and not able to understand the information that is for others, very easy to grasp. you mention falling HP curve, but for some strange reason, you forget that the shift to the next gear has a less mechanical advantage. In the the end, the torque spread sheet or the HP curve has ALL the answers based on the .8 to .85 RPM change for a shift.

I dont get it. why are you fighting it. Its clear you dont even remember your own statement of short shifting due to the engine power at the top, just being "noise", when in actuality, that noise is power! and that POWER is more than if you were to shift.

To say that a top pro is short shifting, in a particular video, and to say that it must be "correct" is nuts. that car has so much power, and he is ripping around the track at break neck speeds, it might be a lap where he is just trying to be comfortable.

On that same side of the coin, your faster laps, with short shifting could have had a million things going on that skewed you times, certainly, short shifting wasnt anything that could help, but only hurt your times. take that motec, make a perfect lap, and use redline shifts vs non redline shifts and you WiLL have a faster time. basic physics, and everything to do with reality, not your experience.

Originally Posted by Veloce Raptor View Post
There is no change of subject. All of these academic theoretical exercises don't change what PedroNole, Viking, myself, mglobe, and may others have figured out in the real world. Look carefully at 0:36 and 1:21 in this video, for example. I cannot IMAGINE why Darren does not shift at redline in these places. Hmmm.....clearly he has not been "educated" by the slowpoke of 50,000 words here. He's ONLY doing a 2:05 here.




As many of us said in the other thread, sometimes it makes sense & is faster to shift short of redline, and this is often true with a street based 996 motor. Which neither you nor Mark have seat time in.

Ay ay ay....








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