Sebring: Boxster S New Personal Best
02-07-2011, 06:54 PM
#61
Rennlist Member
well stated?? you are kidding , right? 
so you are ok with giving up 20-40hp for the exact same amount of time that it would have taken you to get to redline???
I must be insane or something. I work HARD to get 20-40hp. Im not going to give it up, on the track, because I know that I dont have to lose it by staying in gear longer. And, in those tall gears, that last 300rpm might take a couple of seconds. gee, why dont you also advocate slower shifting to save the transmission. why dont you brake less to save the rotors, I mean, this is an insane discussion.
Not one person has disagreed with my data. and then proved it wrong. Not one, yet you, Dave Scott (vr), Viking say that I'm wrong. All you have to do is provide one shred of proof or logic to why you think that the information I provided is wrong. Yet, it never shows up because their lap times didnt improve or didnt change much. Gee, that explains it then, doesnt it. They wouldnt be the first drivers to have more hp and be slower.
If you have more hp at any speed, you will accelerate faster. This power at any speed, may seem like "Noise" to Dave, and anyone else here, but in the end, that "Noise" is producing 20-40 more hp in 3rd or 4th gear with a 996 engine if you tach it out. anyone care to debate this? its my only point.
you are a bunch of sheep following the herd. Just because I disagree with Dave, doesnt make him right. Think about it!
so you are ok with giving up 20-40hp for the exact same amount of time that it would have taken you to get to redline???I must be insane or something. I work HARD to get 20-40hp. Im not going to give it up, on the track, because I know that I dont have to lose it by staying in gear longer. And, in those tall gears, that last 300rpm might take a couple of seconds. gee, why dont you also advocate slower shifting to save the transmission. why dont you brake less to save the rotors, I mean, this is an insane discussion.
Not one person has disagreed with my data. and then proved it wrong. Not one, yet you, Dave Scott (vr), Viking say that I'm wrong. All you have to do is provide one shred of proof or logic to why you think that the information I provided is wrong. Yet, it never shows up because their lap times didnt improve or didnt change much. Gee, that explains it then, doesnt it. They wouldnt be the first drivers to have more hp and be slower.
If you have more hp at any speed, you will accelerate faster. This power at any speed, may seem like "Noise" to Dave, and anyone else here, but in the end, that "Noise" is producing 20-40 more hp in 3rd or 4th gear with a 996 engine if you tach it out. anyone care to debate this? its my only point.
you are a bunch of sheep following the herd. Just because I disagree with Dave, doesnt make him right. Think about it!
02-07-2011, 07:08 PM
#62
Team Owner
02-07-2011, 07:37 PM
#63
As usual Mark, even if you are right, your presentation makes it impossible for anyone to want to have a conversation with you. Can't you see that people literally cringe when you pop into a thread????
Scott
Scott
02-07-2011, 07:43 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
Are you really this silly?
Lets approach this question from another angle.
Do you think this "noise" at the higher rpm is lower torque to the rear wheels, or just so little that its worth short shifting or "shifting earlier" ?
Do you think 40HP loss for 2 seconds down a straight, is just "noise" and anyone shouldnt be concerned about about it as far as performance.
Do you agree that with a rpm drop to 80% of the pre shift rpm from 7600rpm it would go down to 6000rpm from 3-4th gear on a 996 3.6 liter and 83% from 4-5th?
Do you agree that acceleration will be proportional to power at any speed down the straight, not engine torque?
Remember, we are talking about down the set of straights that a track may have. Not out of turns, through turns, etc.
I'm specifically addressing your comment of the last few 100 rpm as being "just noise". and what do you mean by this?
You accuse this as being some kind of "theory" its not, it a simulation of what acceleration will be at any speed. Its really not up for debate as the math is actually quite simple. but you can trust and tell your students to trust, their butt dyno for when to shift.
Lets approach this question from another angle.
Do you think this "noise" at the higher rpm is lower torque to the rear wheels, or just so little that its worth short shifting or "shifting earlier" ?
Do you think 40HP loss for 2 seconds down a straight, is just "noise" and anyone shouldnt be concerned about about it as far as performance.
Do you agree that with a rpm drop to 80% of the pre shift rpm from 7600rpm it would go down to 6000rpm from 3-4th gear on a 996 3.6 liter and 83% from 4-5th?
Do you agree that acceleration will be proportional to power at any speed down the straight, not engine torque?
Remember, we are talking about down the set of straights that a track may have. Not out of turns, through turns, etc.
I'm specifically addressing your comment of the last few 100 rpm as being "just noise". and what do you mean by this?
You accuse this as being some kind of "theory" its not, it a simulation of what acceleration will be at any speed. Its really not up for debate as the math is actually quite simple. but you can trust and tell your students to trust, their butt dyno for when to shift.
02-07-2011, 07:50 PM
#65
Rennlist Member
Go back to where my first post is. I was correcting a major mistake and misconception that could cost a guy looking for bettering his time, some time.
No one generally likes to be corrected, sometimes the truth hurts, so if the sheep want to follow someone with sexy avitars as being the god, thats fine. knock yourself out. Ill hope in my next race, there are some of his disciples racing with me with these same techniques.
Plus I get plenty of private emails quite to the contrary, silenced for what may lay ahead for them if they question the Dave and his goofy followers. We all have a lot to offer here. Im constantly learning from guys on this board. Dave will never, because he knows it all, or at least he thinks he does.
The value of this list is the discussion. If Ive commented in a way that is not desirable, It was not my intent. I just saw something that stood out as obvious, and made a simple comment. got to my first post and see if it was that offensive. Gee, if you have that think of skin, you probably shouldnt be a racer, right. its a discussion board. Discussions dont have to be one way. I get that. many dont, and thats ok. thats why none of this really bothers me.
Here is my first post:
https://rennlist.com/forums/8272806-post13.html
VR Dave Scott, then respond back by saying, "sorry Mark you are wrong".
Now, who cant conduct a discussion here. I provide data, a story in an easy to read format along with gear ratios to support everything. (even circumstances where it might not be true) and yet, all I get is a "your wrong"? you are barking at the wrong dog here.
No one generally likes to be corrected, sometimes the truth hurts, so if the sheep want to follow someone with sexy avitars as being the god, thats fine. knock yourself out. Ill hope in my next race, there are some of his disciples racing with me with these same techniques.
Plus I get plenty of private emails quite to the contrary, silenced for what may lay ahead for them if they question the Dave and his goofy followers. We all have a lot to offer here. Im constantly learning from guys on this board. Dave will never, because he knows it all, or at least he thinks he does.
The value of this list is the discussion. If Ive commented in a way that is not desirable, It was not my intent. I just saw something that stood out as obvious, and made a simple comment. got to my first post and see if it was that offensive. Gee, if you have that think of skin, you probably shouldnt be a racer, right. its a discussion board. Discussions dont have to be one way. I get that. many dont, and thats ok. thats why none of this really bothers me.
Here is my first post:
https://rennlist.com/forums/8272806-post13.html
VR Dave Scott, then respond back by saying, "sorry Mark you are wrong".
Now, who cant conduct a discussion here. I provide data, a story in an easy to read format along with gear ratios to support everything. (even circumstances where it might not be true) and yet, all I get is a "your wrong"? you are barking at the wrong dog here.
02-07-2011, 08:03 PM
#67
From the link I provided above is this text:
Is 7200 [engine redline] the correct shift point? It would *not* be the correct shift point if the engine was making more power in the new gear than the old gear. That would mean that you should have shifted earlier. But in this case, the power output at redline is always greater than the power output after the shift. So it's the best performance you can get.
A more rigorous way of doing this is to graph horsepower vs. velocity in each of the gears. If power in one gear drops below the horsepower of the next gear at a particular MPH, then that MPH is where you should shift, otherwise shift at the redline.
This would seem to be useful information.
Scott
Is 7200 [engine redline] the correct shift point? It would *not* be the correct shift point if the engine was making more power in the new gear than the old gear. That would mean that you should have shifted earlier. But in this case, the power output at redline is always greater than the power output after the shift. So it's the best performance you can get.
A more rigorous way of doing this is to graph horsepower vs. velocity in each of the gears. If power in one gear drops below the horsepower of the next gear at a particular MPH, then that MPH is where you should shift, otherwise shift at the redline.
This would seem to be useful information.
Scott
02-07-2011, 08:07 PM
#68
Rennlist Member
Scott, I think we beat the torque vs HP to death a while back. But that is a good article. Back then, most got it, VR didnt, but thats ok, because in reality, most of the V8s have flatter HP curves so the greater torque engine being better is generally true. that was then, this is now. Now we are talking about short shifting , Or as he says, "shifting early". now, regardless of most any gearing, but close ratio gearing, an engine with a rising or Flat HP curve, will pay dividents to be shifted beyond peak HP, and usually redline.This is a common misconception and here is why:
When HP is flat, that means torue is falling. it might feel like you are running out of steam, acceleation wise, but there is a catch, HP would have to be rising at the same rate that you are going faster in speed, for acceleration to be constant, so intuitively, we think its time to shift when the engine is making "noise". Contrary to this thought, by staying in gear to redline, we are at a higher HP level than a post shift, so we are really using the lesser of two evils. shift a 996 3.6 liter engine on the straight, a little early and you could be losing 20-40hp for the time it would have taken to get to redline.
When HP is flat, that means torue is falling. it might feel like you are running out of steam, acceleation wise, but there is a catch, HP would have to be rising at the same rate that you are going faster in speed, for acceleration to be constant, so intuitively, we think its time to shift when the engine is making "noise". Contrary to this thought, by staying in gear to redline, we are at a higher HP level than a post shift, so we are really using the lesser of two evils. shift a 996 3.6 liter engine on the straight, a little early and you could be losing 20-40hp for the time it would have taken to get to redline.
02-07-2011, 08:11 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Yes, it states exactly what I have been saying, almost to a tee. Not that have any fantastic knowledge of the topic, it is simple stuff, but often misunderstood, almost to the death in discussion! the power of intuition! wrong or right!
so, you have to ask yourself, does shifting early with a 3.6 cost you any HP?? Answer? ..........you fill in the blank. The curves and the gear ratios are known and shown on this thread, even by Viking, posting his dyno run.
Mk
the power of intuition! wrong or right!so, you have to ask yourself, does shifting early with a 3.6 cost you any HP?? Answer? ..........you fill in the blank. The curves and the gear ratios are known and shown on this thread, even by Viking, posting his dyno run.
Mk
From the link I provided above is this text:
Is 7200 [engine redline] the correct shift point? It would *not* be the correct shift point if the engine was making more power in the new gear than the old gear. That would mean that you should have shifted earlier. But in this case, the power output at redline is always greater than the power output after the shift. So it's the best performance you can get.
A more rigorous way of doing this is to graph horsepower vs. velocity in each of the gears. If power in one gear drops below the horsepower of the next gear at a particular MPH, then that MPH is where you should shift, otherwise shift at the redline.
This would seem to be useful information.
Scott
Is 7200 [engine redline] the correct shift point? It would *not* be the correct shift point if the engine was making more power in the new gear than the old gear. That would mean that you should have shifted earlier. But in this case, the power output at redline is always greater than the power output after the shift. So it's the best performance you can get.
A more rigorous way of doing this is to graph horsepower vs. velocity in each of the gears. If power in one gear drops below the horsepower of the next gear at a particular MPH, then that MPH is where you should shift, otherwise shift at the redline.
This would seem to be useful information.
Scott
02-07-2011, 08:24 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
Really, I post because I DO care and love the sport. I try and help where ever I can with this sport, on and off the track. And Dave is a saint and presents things in a polite manner. Read my fist post and then read his response. Im not going to be a door mat when I call someone nicely on an error or misinformation here and they attack rudely. And Ill pull the gloves off if i get punched first.
Since this is the written word and a discussion. Help me understand how I could have presented my point better. maybe I shouldnt have not disagreed?
Really, help me be a better poster!
Hey, you found some outside documentation supporting my thoughts.
If someone else was curious as to how they could improve their performance, and this now became a discussion of the trade offs of maximizing HP and life of the engine, it could have been interesting. Ive had many of those kinds of discussions with fellow racers. Some of them also follow VR's assumptions based on his butt dyno. When you listen and discuss, as we should here, its good for all of us. All VR had to do would be to post where his logic was coming from, rather than firing back with his usual wanna be whitty come backs . He never has responded to a question with an answer, its always, "your wrong, an idiot, etc etc". notice that? How do you discuss with such a personality. You dont. If you cant beat them, you join them or walk away. I chose to argue my point because its based on fact, not butt dynos.
Read my fist post and then read his response. Im not going to be a door mat when I call someone nicely on an error or misinformation here and they attack rudely. And Ill pull the gloves off if i get punched first.Since this is the written word and a discussion. Help me understand how I could have presented my point better. maybe I shouldnt have not disagreed?
Really, help me be a better poster!
Hey, you found some outside documentation supporting my thoughts.
If someone else was curious as to how they could improve their performance, and this now became a discussion of the trade offs of maximizing HP and life of the engine, it could have been interesting. Ive had many of those kinds of discussions with fellow racers. Some of them also follow VR's assumptions based on his butt dyno. When you listen and discuss, as we should here, its good for all of us. All VR had to do would be to post where his logic was coming from, rather than firing back with his usual wanna be whitty come backs . He never has responded to a question with an answer, its always, "your wrong, an idiot, etc etc". notice that? How do you discuss with such a personality. You dont. If you cant beat them, you join them or walk away. I chose to argue my point because its based on fact, not butt dynos.
02-08-2011, 02:57 AM
#73
Rennlist Member
I thought racers were tough, not a bunch of little princesses that cant tollerate anyone with an opinon different than their own. (especially one that has a little merit behind it.)
02-08-2011, 10:05 AM
#74
Team Owner
02-08-2011, 10:08 AM
#75
Race Director
...you think this forum has issues...you should have some knowledge of boat racing forums...now there are some so called racers with real issues....very funny stuff to me.