Hi,

I am just trying to understand it from reading this:
http://www.pca.org/Activities/Driver...Standards.aspx

only relevant passage says this:
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Four point systems are not allowed in Porsches because of the integrated headrest supplied by the factory. In addition to the standard SFI and/ or FIA approved 5- and/or 6-point system, a 4-point system is allowed in non-Porsches that meet the following requirements:
- Meets the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 209.
- Attaches to the factory seat belt mounting points.
- Each belt is designed to work in a specific vehicle and that vehicle tag must be attached to the belt system.
An example of a system that meets the above criteria is the Schroth Quick Fit system.
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then I look at this seat
http://www.recaro.com/us/product-are...rtster-cs.html

which says 'belt guide for 4-point harness'.

So, will it be allowed to use 4 point harness for PCA DEs with this seat or not?
Logically I would think it should, right?

 

or is it just simpler to get a regular 6-point one and let 2 lower sub belts to lay on seat sides?
i am just reluctant to cut a hole in the bottom of this seat.

 

The rennlist user known as "trophy" has a 4 point harness installed in his 993 and he is an instructor at our local PCA DE track days. I am no expert on the topic, but I can't see why a 4 point harness would be any worse than a factor seat belt. Submarining is possible with both systems. Of course nothing beats a 6 point harness.

 

IIRC you would need a seat designed to handle a sub belt, so cutting isn't even an option. I know in my region, it's either a sub-belt (meaning 5 or 6 point) or OEM 3 point. So that would mean no 4 point.

The logic behind it is that a 3 point allows the upper body to bend forward a little so submarining is harder.

 

I stand corrected.

 

Per the PCA rules, you can not cut a hole in a seat and run sub-belts through that hole:

"The Harness system must be used in conjunction with a seat which has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder and antisubmarine belts. "

Bottom line, it's either 3-point belts, or 5/6-point harnesses with a seat built for the harness system.

 

From the Schroth website:

"The patented SCHROTH asm® system offers an unique safety advantage for 4-point harnesses. asm® is the acronym for anti submarining."

 

IIRC... I believe the offical current position of PCA for one of their sanctioned events does not allow for use of the 4 point harness.

 

This whole line of reasoning comes off as a bit insane.

If you're buying and installing racing buckets, and buying a 6-pt belt, just set it up correctly so you can be safe. Tucking the sub straps under the seat cushions to appear to be attached to the car is about as stupid as it gets.

You're safer running the factory 3-pt belts as they were designed than using 2/3 of a 6-pt system.

 

Check with whatever region you will run with but I would use the standard 3-point system with your stock seats. If you require and instructor you need equal restraints on both sides so realistically you need two new seats and two sets of harnesses. I would use a factory restraint, wouldn't get in a seat with only a 4 point.

 

I know when you first start doing track events the costs of safety gear seems revolting, but as you progress and see what can and does happen your going to want the very best. Find a good set of used seats that can mount in the car and if you really don't want to drive around town in them just remove them after the event. It is really a simple task. You can also buy really nice NOS harnesses from a variety of vendors that are one year out of date and good for some time to come. One of the best feelings during the formation lap of a race is knowing your belts are tight and your head is not going to snap off if you buy a guard rail. Walking away from an incident is priceless. You will also drive much better if your not holding onto the wheel to keep from sliding around in the car. Instructors will also give you a larger envelope for progression if they know they are safe in your car from major harm.

 

Better yet, total up the cost of the seats, the harnesses and the install required to make your pretty street car into a worthy track car. Then compare that number to the price of a dedicated track beater.

 

Thanks Gary and everybody else for your responses.
It is probably better to do exactly that - use factory belts, and when rear seats will not be needed - put in SPG XL HANS seats.

For now I will need rear seats as car still will be used on a street as summer kids hauler and front seats must be able to recline so it leaves only 2 options - either expensive GT2 seats or those recaro CS and CS is an OK compromise for now.

 

all that stuff is plain confusing. I see on WRX forums people do get those seats with schroth installed, seats do allow it but it is forbidden anyway?
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-inter...ag-my-sti.html

i need to double check what are current AX rules for all this as that is where I will need it most. if DE is fine with stock 3 point belt - heck, it is no big deal as it does not go nowhere anyway.

 

I have the Schroth E36M3 4 point belts in my M3. They are DOT approved with the stock seats. If the org. I am running with doesn't allow them (some do and some don't) I just run the OEM 3 point belts. Eventually when the $$ allow I will install Roll Bar, Seats, Harnesses remove Sunroof, but right now the budget doesn't have $4000 in it.

Peter