what are PCA DE rules about 4 point harnesses?
01-22-2011, 06:51 PM
#31
Pete Tremper was super nice on this last year... He and I went over this at length....and he is ok with the Schroth ASM 4 pt. In fact, these work with HANS... My hope is that these ASM belts get put into the national regulations explicitly. My other hope is that instructors realize that these exist...they are using technology and engineering to make a 4pt safe. That is reasonable.
The ASM belts have been crash tested....no issues. They are FIA.
This is what I am using:
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/s...m/profi-II-asm
My opinion is that they give the driving improvement harness belts give you AND give you a more OEM seat belt experience in a crash, making the airbags (in my 996tt) more effective. That is something many forget...... Airbags are a good thing.. In a newer car I think these are perhaps the best way to go until you get a full cage and turn the airbags off. I'll be using an R3 too. BK harness bar at the correct height....been hunting on the wanted section for back braces.....will probably just buy those if no one has some that are affordable....
Jeff
The ASM belts have been crash tested....no issues. They are FIA.
This is what I am using:
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/s...m/profi-II-asm
My opinion is that they give the driving improvement harness belts give you AND give you a more OEM seat belt experience in a crash, making the airbags (in my 996tt) more effective. That is something many forget...... Airbags are a good thing.. In a newer car I think these are perhaps the best way to go until you get a full cage and turn the airbags off. I'll be using an R3 too. BK harness bar at the correct height....been hunting on the wanted section for back braces.....will probably just buy those if no one has some that are affordable....
Jeff
01-22-2011, 07:26 PM
#32
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From the PCA DE Minimum standards:
"a 4-point system is allowed in non-Porsches that meet the following requirements:
- Meets the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 209.
- Attaches to the factory seat belt mounting points.
- Each belt is designed to work in a specific vehicle and that vehicle tag must be attached to the belt system.
An example of a system that meets the above criteria is the Schroth Quick Fit system."
To my knowledge, Schroth does not make the Quick Fit for Porsches, and the language specifically states for non-Porsches. The Lone Star Region follows these PCA recommendations. As Safety Chair for LSR, I would be strongly opposed to waving these rules.
"a 4-point system is allowed in non-Porsches that meet the following requirements:
- Meets the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 209.
- Attaches to the factory seat belt mounting points.
- Each belt is designed to work in a specific vehicle and that vehicle tag must be attached to the belt system.
An example of a system that meets the above criteria is the Schroth Quick Fit system."
To my knowledge, Schroth does not make the Quick Fit for Porsches, and the language specifically states for non-Porsches. The Lone Star Region follows these PCA recommendations. As Safety Chair for LSR, I would be strongly opposed to waving these rules.
Pete Tremper was super nice on this last year... He and I went over this at length....and he is ok with the Schroth ASM 4 pt. In fact, these work with HANS... My hope is that these ASM belts get put into the national regulations explicitly. My other hope is that instructors realize that these exist...they are using technology and engineering to make a 4pt safe. That is reasonable.
The ASM belts have been crash tested....no issues. They are FIA.
This is what I am using:
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/s...m/profi-II-asm
Jeff
The ASM belts have been crash tested....no issues. They are FIA.
This is what I am using:
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/s...m/profi-II-asm
Jeff
01-22-2011, 07:58 PM
#33
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Personally, I really still don't like the idea of folks going with 4-points and no roll bar. I understand why they might want to use them, but I'm not convinced that it's a good idea. These belts will hold folks in place better, and facilitate faster driving as a result. But I'm not sure facilitating faster driving, without giving the full protection of a roll bar and 5/6 point harnesses is a good idea, particularly with the high speeds modern cars are capable of. But that's just me. I'd defer to national on the final judgement.
01-22-2011, 08:39 PM
#34
There are non-quickfit Schroth 4 pt belts that have the ASM technology and more importantly for the rule are DOT approved. In my opinion those are the two things that get them past the rules and into the PCA DE. The 'quickfit' easy installation is not the reason it meets the rules for PCA IMO.
I think what gets you is that is not a DOT approved belt. The camlock doens't pass the DOT standard for a release mechanism.
I think what gets you is that is not a DOT approved belt. The camlock doens't pass the DOT standard for a release mechanism.
To be DOT, I buy a camlock with a "PRESS" button in orange....will do. Sort of fun for driving on the street too....works for me.
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/s...ment-cam-locks
Thanks.
Jeff
01-23-2011, 11:30 AM
#35
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Personally, I really still don't like the idea of folks going with 4-points and no roll bar. I understand why they might want to use them, but I'm not convinced that it's a good idea. These belts will hold folks in place better, and facilitate faster driving as a result. But I'm not sure facilitating faster driving, without giving the full protection of a roll bar and 5/6 point harnesses is a good idea, particularly with the high speeds modern cars are capable of. But that's just me. I'd defer to national on the final judgement.
01-23-2011, 12:09 PM
#37
Three Wheelin'
Actually Joe, I think you may be right about this. Schroth does make some belts (Rallye ASM) that when installed properly, and used with a proper seat might technically pass the PCA rules.
Personally, I really still don't like the idea of folks going with 4-points and no roll bar. I understand why they might want to use them, but I'm not convinced that it's a good idea. These belts will hold folks in place better, and facilitate faster driving as a result. But I'm not sure facilitating faster driving, without giving the full protection of a roll bar and 5/6 point harnesses is a good idea, particularly with the high speeds modern cars are capable of. But that's just me. I'd defer to national on the final judgement.
Personally, I really still don't like the idea of folks going with 4-points and no roll bar. I understand why they might want to use them, but I'm not convinced that it's a good idea. These belts will hold folks in place better, and facilitate faster driving as a result. But I'm not sure facilitating faster driving, without giving the full protection of a roll bar and 5/6 point harnesses is a good idea, particularly with the high speeds modern cars are capable of. But that's just me. I'd defer to national on the final judgement.
I tend to agree with Mike on this topic.
01-23-2011, 02:19 PM
#38
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+ 1 , I won't put a harness or race seats in my car until I put in a full cage. Plain and simple it seems silly to give yourself the ability to go faster in the car because you don't have to focus as much on keeping your body in place and not give yourself the full safety to go with it.
02-12-2011, 11:12 PM
#39
The 5th, 6th, and 7th straps are meant to catch you as you submarine. They are not a magic item of some sort...look at video #1 of standard 4pts...that is what the 1, 2, or 3 extra straps were meant to stop. The ASM design came after the 5/6/7 pt harness and solves the same problem with equal success.
See the video (first)...the 5/6/7 pt straps are not inherently supposed to do much catching and if they do, they will cause compression in the crotch. In some of those cases, it looks like it would be a huge amount of force.
The Schroth system has been tested in 90 crash tests +. It is not your average 4pt by any means. It works. It could be argued that it might cause "less" harm than a 5, 6, or 7 pt....if you consider the crotch.
It is tested with airbags.... (video 2).
It is FIA and DOT legal depending on which center lock you choose...I happen to own both.
It can be used with a Hans. I happen to have an R3.
It was approved by Mr. Tremper as of right now for PCA DE and will be put into the national rules. He sent me an email to that effect and suggested I take the email with me to tech inspections.
The key is using it properly. Just like in a 5+ point the waist strap must be 1.5-2" bellow the navel and the waist strap must be tight enough so that when the shoulder straps are tightened it does not move.
Anyway, one could argue that a roll bar on the street is far more dangerous than the Schroth ASM is on the track.... I think it is safer than the factory 3pt....the video suggests such is the case (#1).
In my opinion it is safer to be secure in your car than not (holding onto the steering wheel for stability as much as for car directional control...), so I respectfully disagree with the above. Choosing to slide around at a DE because one lacks a cage is somehow incomplete logic in my mind. The more I have control, the safer I'll be. Might just be me. But that is how I feel and what my instructors have all said and felt. Holding onto the car is incredibly distracting and, per the logic above citing it being safer, is perhaps more dangerous. I have not seen any data saying CGlocks increase danger at the track, and there are enough of them out there to have had that effect by now if the above logic is true. Lawyers seeking big bucks would have found that out by now for sure. I just don't buy it, with all due respect. I drive a lot faster with cglocks in the car too. Police and FBI people use the cg lock in their cars supposedly because it makes faster driving safer.
The crash tests (90 or more of them) show the ASM thing works. Just a fact. Mr. Tremper has not approved, afaik, any other 4pt belt. I don't happen to know of any similar system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_FhuSEaU8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHbwvYqq22s
And you can drive pretty darn fast with a 3point if you want...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNEhK_LTCqA
I have no affiliation with HMS motorsports or with Schroth except that I have a profi ASM with the additon of the FE DOT hubs. I have both the FIA ones and just got the DOT ones. So, in theory, I can drive around on the street legally with my ASM harness. That is how I plan to drive to my DE's. I paid full price for my belts.
Jeff
See the video (first)...the 5/6/7 pt straps are not inherently supposed to do much catching and if they do, they will cause compression in the crotch. In some of those cases, it looks like it would be a huge amount of force.
The Schroth system has been tested in 90 crash tests +. It is not your average 4pt by any means. It works. It could be argued that it might cause "less" harm than a 5, 6, or 7 pt....if you consider the crotch.
It is tested with airbags.... (video 2).
It is FIA and DOT legal depending on which center lock you choose...I happen to own both.
It can be used with a Hans. I happen to have an R3.
It was approved by Mr. Tremper as of right now for PCA DE and will be put into the national rules. He sent me an email to that effect and suggested I take the email with me to tech inspections.
The key is using it properly. Just like in a 5+ point the waist strap must be 1.5-2" bellow the navel and the waist strap must be tight enough so that when the shoulder straps are tightened it does not move.
Anyway, one could argue that a roll bar on the street is far more dangerous than the Schroth ASM is on the track.... I think it is safer than the factory 3pt....the video suggests such is the case (#1).
In my opinion it is safer to be secure in your car than not (holding onto the steering wheel for stability as much as for car directional control...), so I respectfully disagree with the above. Choosing to slide around at a DE because one lacks a cage is somehow incomplete logic in my mind. The more I have control, the safer I'll be. Might just be me. But that is how I feel and what my instructors have all said and felt. Holding onto the car is incredibly distracting and, per the logic above citing it being safer, is perhaps more dangerous. I have not seen any data saying CGlocks increase danger at the track, and there are enough of them out there to have had that effect by now if the above logic is true. Lawyers seeking big bucks would have found that out by now for sure. I just don't buy it, with all due respect. I drive a lot faster with cglocks in the car too. Police and FBI people use the cg lock in their cars supposedly because it makes faster driving safer.
The crash tests (90 or more of them) show the ASM thing works. Just a fact. Mr. Tremper has not approved, afaik, any other 4pt belt. I don't happen to know of any similar system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HR_FhuSEaU8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHbwvYqq22s
And you can drive pretty darn fast with a 3point if you want...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNEhK_LTCqA
I have no affiliation with HMS motorsports or with Schroth except that I have a profi ASM with the additon of the FE DOT hubs. I have both the FIA ones and just got the DOT ones. So, in theory, I can drive around on the street legally with my ASM harness. That is how I plan to drive to my DE's. I paid full price for my belts.
Jeff
Last edited by jcb-memphis; 02-13-2011 at 12:23 AM.
02-14-2011, 12:11 PM
#41
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I have not seen any data saying CGlocks increase danger at the track, and there are enough of them out there to have had that effect by now if the above logic is true. Lawyers seeking big bucks would have found that out by now for sure. I just don't buy it, with all due respect. I drive a lot faster with cglocks in the car too. Police and FBI people use the cg lock in their cars supposedly because it makes faster driving safer.
Jeff
Jeff
from cs sportster seat construction I can say no way in hell you can do submarining after lower belt is tightened - there is no space left there to slip under belt and I think 4 point would work fine. but it looks it is too much pain to go over those multiple discussions about regulations and overall feel of this new seat with cg-lock on standard 3point harness is very good, it really fixes lower part of the body perfectly still in the bucket and that was a major issue with old seats.
02-14-2011, 11:34 PM
#42
You could always try the Teamtech JetPilot harness... I'd send a letter/email to your area's tech official for approval first.
The harness is a 6-pt harness, but attaches to your vehicle via 4 points. The 5th and 6th points wrap around your upper thighs, like a rock-climbing harness or parachute harness. This eliminates the need for the two points to go through your seat. I've used conventional 6point harnesses before and have never felt "safer" in them, quite the opposite... if given the choice of my junk taking the brunt of my 210lbs being restrained in a high-speed frontal crash from a 5point harness, or 6point that pass through the same hole or narrowly spaced holes, ....well, I'd rather have the jumper system of the Jet Pilot. A man's crotch should not be used for such a purpose...
The 5th and 6th points should not take the brunt of the impact, but the 4 main points absorbing the impact and the 5/6pts keeping you from sliding under - the reason why the 5th and 6th points are required.
Plenty of guys have used the JetPilot in SCCA and NASA, and have tested it's efficiency. I've never heard anything but high praise for the product and it's custom made for you. There are some really nice features of the harness...could be an option for some instead of the usual choices.
After reading the case study ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science.../sdarticle.pdf - WARNING****Graphic pics) of the rally-navigator who had "testicular degloving of the *******"...yeah, pictures were unbelieveable, I went to the Teamtech Jet-pilot harness. Thankfully, I've not tested it's use (in a crash) but I've no reservations of using it. There's no chance of 'submarining' and when installed correctly should miminimze the "degloving" possibilities.
Also meets SFI 16.1 specs.
http://www.teamtechmotorsports.com/r.../jetpilot.html
This also eliminates the need for the harness to pass through the seat bottom.
Be good,
TomK
The harness is a 6-pt harness, but attaches to your vehicle via 4 points. The 5th and 6th points wrap around your upper thighs, like a rock-climbing harness or parachute harness. This eliminates the need for the two points to go through your seat. I've used conventional 6point harnesses before and have never felt "safer" in them, quite the opposite... if given the choice of my junk taking the brunt of my 210lbs being restrained in a high-speed frontal crash from a 5point harness, or 6point that pass through the same hole or narrowly spaced holes, ....well, I'd rather have the jumper system of the Jet Pilot. A man's crotch should not be used for such a purpose...
The 5th and 6th points should not take the brunt of the impact, but the 4 main points absorbing the impact and the 5/6pts keeping you from sliding under - the reason why the 5th and 6th points are required.
Plenty of guys have used the JetPilot in SCCA and NASA, and have tested it's efficiency. I've never heard anything but high praise for the product and it's custom made for you. There are some really nice features of the harness...could be an option for some instead of the usual choices.
After reading the case study ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science.../sdarticle.pdf - WARNING****Graphic pics) of the rally-navigator who had "testicular degloving of the *******"...yeah, pictures were unbelieveable, I went to the Teamtech Jet-pilot harness. Thankfully, I've not tested it's use (in a crash) but I've no reservations of using it. There's no chance of 'submarining' and when installed correctly should miminimze the "degloving" possibilities.
Also meets SFI 16.1 specs.
http://www.teamtechmotorsports.com/r.../jetpilot.html
This also eliminates the need for the harness to pass through the seat bottom.
Be good,
TomK
02-15-2011, 08:08 AM
#43
Thanks ACE. That looks like a good back-up plan. I'd rather not spend another 900 dollars on straps right now...given that the Schroth stuff is very high quality and safe.
Hopefully, NASA will allow ASM (updated due to Gofishracing's kind input in the next pane).
These ASM units are clearly a different species.
Jeff
Hopefully, NASA will allow ASM (updated due to Gofishracing's kind input in the next pane).
These ASM units are clearly a different species.
Jeff
Last edited by jcb-memphis; 02-15-2011 at 10:42 AM.
02-15-2011, 08:16 AM
#44
NASA rules same as PCA and others when it come to restraints, proper seating and safety devices. It is more an insurance thing that a club thing. Teamtech Jet Pilot harness is approved by NASA NE for seats with proper harness openings but no sub strap such as the Recaro seats referenced above.
Last edited by Gofishracing; 02-15-2011 at 07:57 PM.
03-22-2011, 07:00 PM
#45
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OMG!!
Ace996 wrote:
After reading the case study ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science.../sdarticle.pdf - WARNING****Graphic pics) of the rally-navigator who had "testicular degloving of the *******"...yeah, pictures were unbelieveable, I went to the Teamtech Jet-pilot harness. Thankfully, I've not tested it's use (in a crash) but I've no reservations of using it. There's no chance of 'submarining' and when installed correctly should miminimze the "degloving" possibilities.
'93rsa 3.8
Ace996 wrote:
After reading the case study ( http://www.sciencedirect.com/science.../sdarticle.pdf - WARNING****Graphic pics) of the rally-navigator who had "testicular degloving of the *******"...yeah, pictures were unbelieveable, I went to the Teamtech Jet-pilot harness. Thankfully, I've not tested it's use (in a crash) but I've no reservations of using it. There's no chance of 'submarining' and when installed correctly should miminimze the "degloving" possibilities.
'93rsa 3.8