winders

Yes, Mark, I get that you think all the wings are effectively the same.

Scott

mark kibort

I didnt say that. I said that the differences of wings are slight due to the closeness of lift to drag ratios of the wings most likely used by a someone putting it on a race car. Do you disagree? if so, explain how they could be much more different.
If I took Mike's banana wing and put a cup car wing of the same size on the back, what kind of differences would he see? you can get the same downforce right? the difference will be in the L/D ratio. what would be the max difference one could imagine? instead of 10:1, it goes to 15:1? 50% change. what is the effect of a 10 to 15:1 change in drag for a given downforce? given the example of 250lbs of downforce, that would be 25lbs or as little as 16lbs. thats a 10lb of drag difference for a 50% difference in drag , which is very extreme. even at that extreme, the net effect would be near 1HP as far as drag effects.

in your opinion, what would make YOU change out a wing or pick one over another?

winders

One more time....

Yes, Mark, I get that you think all the wings are effectively the same.

Scott

mark kibort

Scott,

I get the fact that you dont want to tell me why we should expect more differences between wing designs. One more time, i didnt say they are the same, (effectively) I said for our use, there are is "not much of a difference? between wings of the same size. If there is, I would love to know more about how. Why are you avoiding the question? Do you not know?

anyone anyone?

Mark

onefastviking

I don't think people care to discuss topics with you Mark because you never seem willing to accept another persons thoughts and opinions. You always seem to revert back to your way and telling us the many ways of how you have proven that you are correct. There are some VERY smart people on here, it pays to listen to others. You don't have to know everything about every subject, I know I don't.

So here, you say the wings of all size are the effectively the same. Tell me this wing
http://www.aprperformance.com/index....d=32&Itemid=45

in a similiar size, is effectively the same as the latest and greatest Cup car wing.

mark kibort

Its so typical. When there is a piece of objective information people coward, and cant even put their thoughts or ideas into words. I just gave a SIMPLE Lift to drag ratio for a wing common to our sport and was asking, if I was missing anything in thinking there couldnt be that much difference between wings.
maybe i asked or i came across in the wrong way. it wasnt my intent.

Thanks for posting a link to a comparison (I hope) Ill check it out.
We can learn something here. All of us. Its why we discuss stuff here. we hope someone with experience or information will chime in and provide factual proof and ideas to help with our racing efforts.

winders

Mike,

I suspect the banana wing design was a way to get more wing area within the wing width and chord length allowed by the rules.

I could be wrong but it is the only reason that makes any sense to me.

Scott

winders

No, Mark, you are so consistent in your behavior that no one wants to discuss anything with you. It's not cowardice. It's you...

Scott

mark kibort

First of all, there must be a comprehension problem. I can read my own posts that clealy say that the wings differences, especially at slower tracks will not be that different as far as L/D ratios for wings the same size. "that different" means, I dont think you will be able to tell at any track other than a track that has turns at 120mph +

so, what does this mean to you? Clearly, this is as different as a wing can get to a cup car wing. assuming that both wings are putting 250lbs of downforce at 120mph, what would the drag differences be? I think you are going a little extreme with this wing and I wonder if it could even put down 250lbs of downforce. I was talking more about real wings like the ones found on a cup car or other race car that werent glassed in someones garage.

If I was to guess, this ween at 250lbs of downforce might be off the charts as far as drag. When I look at NACA charts of the hundreds of air foils available, I dont see a real dramatic difference for the way we would use them. sure, if you are an ALMS team or running lemans, then yes, every single drop of gas and ounce of drag matters. But for our uses, what are you looking for in a wing compared to an old cup car wing for example???

What I see most commonly in pro motorsports, is going bigger for more downforce at less of a AOA. matching size with AOL is without question like comparing a wing with a parachute. we are talking same sized wings.

What do all the "Smart " people thing of what the trade offs would be?

mark kibort

Ok, let me let you quelch my opinion because you cant make a valid point here.
I asked a simple question, posted some simple facts and am asking if I am missing anything here.
scott, I think you need a time out.

winders

onefastviking,

I have looked at that web site and, based on the speeds common to the tracks I will race at, this wing in particular:

http://www.aprperformance.com/index....sk=view&id=181

I also looked at this wing:

http://www.goodaero.com/JSG/GOODAero.nsf/Products?Open

Based on CFD data, the GOODAero wing is probably a little better at the downforce levels I will run at.

I am still trying to get the CFD data for the GT Racing Predator wing.

Most of the people I know have the Predator wing. I will probably get a different wing and then try to get some time to test whatever wing I buy and the Predator back to back on my car or a friends car. Then we can see if their is any appreciable difference. It would be best of the car used in the testing had some form of DA.

Or, I may just buy the Predator and know that my competition is using the same wing on similar cars. At least I won't be at a disadvantage!

Scott

mark kibort

I think this makes sense to me as well.

Fan, has a banana wing, Anderson has the more standard looking wing. both cars drive near the same on same tires and power. I think they are very close at very high speed tracks such as willow and cal speedway.

It would be interesting if someone had some real data on the different wings available for race cars.

I think what makes this sport so fun, is the creativity we all have in testing setting up and changing our set ups to try and go faster. I think if we all had access to the wind tunnel, we all would end up with the same designs for the same tracks with the same cars.

mark kibort

pretty interesting . thanks for posting that site.

I measured with the cup car wing, near the exact same number at 120mph. (somewhere near the 250 to 275lb downforce range) based on the air foil, the drag would probably be near the same for 5 -7 degrees AOA. Sure , lots of differences, but I wonder how much they really are on the car. (i.e. my AOA was 7 degrees, but effectively more like 12-15 due to flow off the roof)
Also, we dont know about the size of the wing either. I suspect the L/D wouldnt be that difference, but who knows.

It would be very cool to have different wings tested under the same conditions to really know. But, as we all know, that will never happen. we have to plug in the shapes to simulators to get an idea of how they willl perform. I have a link to one if you are interested. you can plug in NACA numbers or draw a shape free-hand.

winders

The APR GTC-300 wings has 345 lbs of down force and 39 lbs of drag (8.8:1) at 120 MPH with a zero degree AoA. At 5 degrees AoA, the downforce is 419 lbs while the drag is 52 lbs (8:1).

That's much different than the Cup wing if the downforce is 250 lbs at 120 MPH, whatever the AoA.

Scott

Johninrsf

Five years ago when I was building my car, I called and spoke to Crawford about buying one of his banana wings (and yes, he was the original designer). His response was, "why would you want one of those --those were just built to satisfy a Rule" (he didn't elaborate on the particular Rule). He went on to say "a straight wing is much more effective". So that's what I went with. That was in '05.