Pls Help Diagnose a Spin?
08-30-2010, 08:30 AM
#46
Rennlist Member
My humble opinion, helped by some of the comments here:
Problem number one is the line. Bad line will result in issues if you don't adjust.
Problem number two is too much throttle through the 'apex' of Turn 2. You've just compounded the potential issue
At this point, you're running out of track. You have two choices: run out onto the grass and slow gradually or pinch and lift to stay on track. You chose the pinch/lift and the back end came around.
From here, you've got some good advice above on counter-steer with mild increased throttle
However, I want to state my opinion, since investing in 3 pages of reading and two vides, that the primary issue is line and the too much gas. In the future, you'll know that when you're off line due to:
- a mistake
- a pass
- someone else's mistake
- rain, debris, etc
That you'll need to decrease your throttle accordingly or be faced with an opportunity to practice emergency maneuvers
Problem number one is the line. Bad line will result in issues if you don't adjust.
Problem number two is too much throttle through the 'apex' of Turn 2. You've just compounded the potential issue
At this point, you're running out of track. You have two choices: run out onto the grass and slow gradually or pinch and lift to stay on track. You chose the pinch/lift and the back end came around.
From here, you've got some good advice above on counter-steer with mild increased throttle
However, I want to state my opinion, since investing in 3 pages of reading and two vides, that the primary issue is line and the too much gas. In the future, you'll know that when you're off line due to:
- a mistake
- a pass
- someone else's mistake
- rain, debris, etc
That you'll need to decrease your throttle accordingly or be faced with an opportunity to practice emergency maneuvers
Last edited by Jack667; 08-30-2010 at 12:20 PM.
08-30-2010, 08:58 AM
#48
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Didn't someone mention the other helmet in the car already? Truthfully, there's not much an instructor can do in that instance, unless he is clairvoyant and sees it coming well in advance. Then, the student has to do EXACTLY what he says, WHEN he says for it to work. That's on one bark of advice and in a split second. Not very likely the brain can react that fast to a verbal command. It has to be a subconscious scream, and from within the driver's own mind!
08-30-2010, 09:04 AM
#49
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Skid Pad?
Goodness, what a stupendous luxury. Were it to be that we were all so fortunate. Wouldn't it be grand to have everyone have access to one of these before hey hit the track? My skid pad came from aggressive Northeast Winter driving from a very early age in RWD cars, and taking my Beetle out on the frozen pond behind my house. Never done a paved one.
Goodness, what a stupendous luxury. Were it to be that we were all so fortunate. Wouldn't it be grand to have everyone have access to one of these before hey hit the track? My skid pad came from aggressive Northeast Winter driving from a very early age in RWD cars, and taking my Beetle out on the frozen pond behind my house. Never done a paved one.
08-30-2010, 09:15 AM
#50
Actually there is plenty of time for the Instructor to give input as to hand positions, corner entry, late braking, early apexing, both feet in, etc. It's what he gets paid the big bucks for.
08-30-2010, 10:54 AM
#51
Nordschleife Master
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vacuuming Cal Speedway
Posts: 7,306
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes
on
5 Posts
Skid Pad?
Goodness, what a stupendous luxury. Were it to be that we were all so fortunate. Wouldn't it be grand to have everyone have access to one of these before hey hit the track? My skid pad came from aggressive Northeast Winter driving from a very early age in RWD cars, and taking my Beetle out on the frozen pond behind my house. Never done a paved one.
Goodness, what a stupendous luxury. Were it to be that we were all so fortunate. Wouldn't it be grand to have everyone have access to one of these before hey hit the track? My skid pad came from aggressive Northeast Winter driving from a very early age in RWD cars, and taking my Beetle out on the frozen pond behind my house. Never done a paved one.
08-30-2010, 01:30 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
NO offence, but i hate when folks blame the "Line" for their mishaps. the Line is almost always NOT the problem its all car control. JR, tell me how many times we go through turns in races WAY off line, to protect or pass. Its a feel and knowledge what the car can do. Getting to that instructor, yep, it should have been obvious that this exit on that turn , with that much speed, was doomed. we are not talking a wiggle, a slide, we are talking a spin. That usually is due to several errors before hand. In my book, if you catch the slide, and end up only sideways, even totally, you saved it. 
Bottom line, when you are exiting a turn, the wheel needs to be "uncoiling" to avoid this kind of mishap. if you uncoil the wheel, you can get all sorts of power down, even spin the tires and the car will always point straight, or be controlable. Hold the wheel like what was done, apply throttle on exit, and this usually what will happen, or at least a wiggle. you dont want wiggle if you can avoid it.
Bottom line, when you are exiting a turn, the wheel needs to be "uncoiling" to avoid this kind of mishap. if you uncoil the wheel, you can get all sorts of power down, even spin the tires and the car will always point straight, or be controlable. Hold the wheel like what was done, apply throttle on exit, and this usually what will happen, or at least a wiggle. you dont want wiggle if you can avoid it.
My humble opinion, helped by some of the comments here:
Problem number one is the line. Bad line will result in issues if you don't adjust.
Problem number two is too much throttle through the 'apex' of Turn 2. You've just compounded the potential issue
At this point, you're running out of track. You have two choices: run out onto the grass and slow gradually or pinch and lift to stay on track. You chose the pinch/lift and the back end came around.
From here, you've got some good advice above on counter-steer with mild increased throttle
However, I want to state my opinion, since investing in 3 pages of reading and two vides, that the primary issue is line and the too much gas. In the future, you'll know that when you're off line due to:
- a mistake
- a pass
- someone else's mistake
- rain, debris, etc
That you'll need to decrease your throttle accordingly or be faced with an opportunity to practice emergency maneuvers
Problem number one is the line. Bad line will result in issues if you don't adjust.
Problem number two is too much throttle through the 'apex' of Turn 2. You've just compounded the potential issue
At this point, you're running out of track. You have two choices: run out onto the grass and slow gradually or pinch and lift to stay on track. You chose the pinch/lift and the back end came around.
From here, you've got some good advice above on counter-steer with mild increased throttle
However, I want to state my opinion, since investing in 3 pages of reading and two vides, that the primary issue is line and the too much gas. In the future, you'll know that when you're off line due to:
- a mistake
- a pass
- someone else's mistake
- rain, debris, etc
That you'll need to decrease your throttle accordingly or be faced with an opportunity to practice emergency maneuvers
08-30-2010, 01:36 PM
#53
i hate when folks blame the "Line" for their mishaps. the Line is almost always NOT the problem its all car control. JR, tell me how many times we go through turns in races WAY off line, to protect or pass. Its a feel and knowledge what the car can do. Getting to that instructor, yep, it should have been obvious that this exit on that turn , with that much speed, was doomed. we are not talking a wiggle, a slide, we are talking a spin. That usually is due to several errors before hand. In my book, if you catch the slide, and end up only sideways, even totally, you saved it.
08-30-2010, 06:34 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Yep - instructor should have reacted, based on the line and the throttle input.
Re my point about 'the line', I point out that folks will be off-line all the time. Probably every single lap in at least one slot, so being off-line is a way of life. If you're way off line, AND over-doing it with the throttle as in this video, I think you'd need a ton of experience like Mark and others have (but many here don't), to avoid an 'off' or spin, regardless of unwinding and pinching.
If you look at the 2nd video at about the 14 second mark, he's already at the almost at the edge of the track. How much more unwinding can he do before he runs into the grass? IMHO, an experienced racer, at that point in the video 14 seconds, prior to pinch/lift, could unwind more - yes - and put two wheels off and into the grass, and get through it with much less danger than we see in the video. I really doubt anyone (pro racers included) could keep the car on track without a pinch, after all that throttle and being off-line with no trackout.
I think you're saying that you could be that far offline, and have all that speed at the 14 second mark, based on all that throttle input, and unwinding and car control could save the spin. I would agree, but only with two or four wheels off. Maybe we're in agreement here?
All I'm saying is that at that point, a choice was made to pinch vs go into the grass. I think the wrong choice in this case, but maybe the proper choice if there was a wall immediately adjacent to the track surface. Either way, I was trying to say that there is a crazy/exciting maneuver coming up after being off-line and not backing off the throttle.
Maybe you don't agree - that's fine. You certainly have more experience than me. I just wanted to clarify that I'm cool with being off-line, and I'm not a DE-only conservative line-worshipper. It's just that the combo of being off-line and massive throttle input is a recipe for excitement.
Re my point about 'the line', I point out that folks will be off-line all the time. Probably every single lap in at least one slot, so being off-line is a way of life. If you're way off line, AND over-doing it with the throttle as in this video, I think you'd need a ton of experience like Mark and others have (but many here don't), to avoid an 'off' or spin, regardless of unwinding and pinching.
If you look at the 2nd video at about the 14 second mark, he's already at the almost at the edge of the track. How much more unwinding can he do before he runs into the grass? IMHO, an experienced racer, at that point in the video 14 seconds, prior to pinch/lift, could unwind more - yes - and put two wheels off and into the grass, and get through it with much less danger than we see in the video. I really doubt anyone (pro racers included) could keep the car on track without a pinch, after all that throttle and being off-line with no trackout.
I think you're saying that you could be that far offline, and have all that speed at the 14 second mark, based on all that throttle input, and unwinding and car control could save the spin. I would agree, but only with two or four wheels off. Maybe we're in agreement here?
All I'm saying is that at that point, a choice was made to pinch vs go into the grass. I think the wrong choice in this case, but maybe the proper choice if there was a wall immediately adjacent to the track surface. Either way, I was trying to say that there is a crazy/exciting maneuver coming up after being off-line and not backing off the throttle.
Maybe you don't agree - that's fine. You certainly have more experience than me. I just wanted to clarify that I'm cool with being off-line, and I'm not a DE-only conservative line-worshipper. It's just that the combo of being off-line and massive throttle input is a recipe for excitement.
08-30-2010, 06:39 PM
#55
Rennlist Member
Oh - and one last thing:
You can't expect someone who is obviously a novice (sorry if I'm wrong, but no gloves, hand action, line, etc point that way), to have the ability to save that. Sure, a pro could. Mark could. Some other here could. But many here including this guy should not be expected to save that. Maybe I'm just thinking of myself as an instructor. I'll be instructing at Road Atlanta next weekend.
If I was in the car with this guy, discussing this after the fact, I would tell him he was off-line and put too much throttle. Do you think anyone in their right mind would tell them that all was fine until he didn't unwind? Really?
You can't expect someone who is obviously a novice (sorry if I'm wrong, but no gloves, hand action, line, etc point that way), to have the ability to save that. Sure, a pro could. Mark could. Some other here could. But many here including this guy should not be expected to save that. Maybe I'm just thinking of myself as an instructor. I'll be instructing at Road Atlanta next weekend.
If I was in the car with this guy, discussing this after the fact, I would tell him he was off-line and put too much throttle. Do you think anyone in their right mind would tell them that all was fine until he didn't unwind? Really?
07-17-2023, 02:00 PM
#56
I apologize in advance for reviving this old thread. But wow. What a fascinating and informative thread. I enjoyed reading and came across a video below from which you can learn a lot about correct steering wheel work in an oversteering situation. I'm sure the thread opener is already a professional driver today. But it's very nice to jumpstart anyone who hasn't come across this thread yet. Cheers!
