boxsey911

I think the video below will help you understand the better line that many people on this thread are advocating. Starting at 1.01 in the video is a very similar double apex corner called 'Druids' at Oulton Park in the UK. It is famous for being the grave yard of many a 911. We are taught to keep a car's width from the first apex and look through the corner to the second apex. This is the real apex that we want to clip and then unwind the steering as we apply throttle. There's a dip in the track on the exit which makes it doubly important that the steering is fully unwound before applying full power - failure to do so results in a spin, barriers and trees!

I think your track would really benefit from having kerbs on the inside of T2 to help identify it as the real apex as T1/T2 is really a double apex corner in my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg4bB6Uobns

p.s. it's not me driving in the video above (I'm the much slower 964 in the early part of the video).

CRex

TC was on (no SC in RS's) together with sports mode. As you can tell, TC can't defy physics

Now the wheel is on the RIGHT side (pun intended). What's wrong with that

buckwheat987

CRex,

i cant comment since I'm new to this...but thanks for posting this and asking for help. The comments here are terrific learning opportunities.

These types of threads make this forum great.

Jim Michaels

Now that we've got this sorted-out here, what did the instructor in the car say about the spin?

Carlo_Carrera

I just saw something in the video and I wanted to correct myself.

CRex you did lift just before the rear broke loose. I was watching the revs so closely that I didn't see the green throttle bar next to it. The throttle indicator shows you lifted slightly and then the rear came out so I completely concur with Mr_Fizz's post.

RedlineMan

Haaaaaay!

All this is crap, you are all lousy drovers, none of you know anything about your FC, and you are all low class people.

Well, it was sounding far too light, fluffy, factual, and friendly... ummm, with the exception of JRichard. Somebody had to muck it up a bit. Threads without controversy don't hold anyones interest on Rennlist, since we are all known to eat our young around here..

I'd love to drive Oulton Park!

It is interesting that there are kernels of truth in all of these responses, but the application of various points falls very much down to driver ability and skill level. In this clip there was sloppy braking, suspect mechanics, early turn in, resultant poor line, steer out and then back, lift, late unwind, slow hands ... just a plethora of faults one might point to, all of them causal in one way or another. Between the lot of us, we got it all covered.

Now, regarding all the advice, the skill level of the driver comes in, and mitigates which advice works in what circumstance. It is a tricky thing for all but the most advanced drivers to not flinch and lift a bit when faced with difficulty. I still do it on occasion - and yet the advanced driver can do it, and many other things considered imprudent, because he has the tricks in his bag to correct for what results. Further, those remedies are served at lightening speed almost before they are needed because the driver has the experience to anticipate them. The accomplished magician has his bag of tricks at the ready in the background all the while.

You NEVER want a novice to lift, because the supporting tricks are not there. The skilled driver hopefully lifts to effect a helpful change in the car's attitude, but even if he has a spaz, he can spruce it up again without anyone being the wiser. An early turn in is utterly common for, and yet far more deadly to, the novice than the old hand. A novice fidgets and steers away from the apex he thinks he might hit, where the veteran keeps his foot in it knowing that at the worst he might only raise a tad of dust at the apex, and if he does biff the apex curb, he's ready with that skill set too. A skilled driver could have driven right out of what we saw in that clip without anyone being the wiser. We just witnessed a case where there were far too many variables wandering off the reservation for an intermediate driver to manage with a limited skill set.

However, in this case I am quite impressed with the posters frame of mind. Exceptionally well done. It is quite rare to find someone with the wherewithal to secure such a fine vehicle, and yet be humble enough to give it and his more experienced brothers their due. It is a pleasure to discuss the driving riddle with someone so grounded. Kudos, CRex!

Larry Herman

This is brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

In a condensed version (if I may be so bold) it is simply this: The advice changes as the skillset grows. What works for the advanced driver with a bag full of car control tricks, years of experience and anticipation, and practice at doing it is completely beyond what the upcoming driver can do. That is why, for the novice, working on the line, consistency and error-free driving are paramount to developing advanced skills.

333pg333

The joke that keeps on giving.

Gofishracing

Control your corner entry- control your corner exit.

CRex

Hey that double-apex seems familiar!! Oulton looks fun from the track map and much more "track-like" compared to the few airstrip-converted UK racetracks I've been to. Love to drive it one day--maybe when I buy that dream car in the UK!


Slow unwind, definitely, but he wasn't pleased as you would imagine! I was grounded after that spin and we didn't have the benefit of instant video review that day. But I'm going to go thru it with him later this week...

At the rate you're offering these nuggets of wisdom, I think fair to stir up some controvesy every now and then Very much agree with the skills/progression comment--I try to list out three or four things to work on before a track day and you bet I'll gradually work these dozen things into the list over time. Now when I'll get through all that I don't know--I don't drive flat out and don't own a Koenisegg so I may never get there

To all: thanks for taking the time to go through my question in iterations. Hopefully the time you've invested will keep me out of the wall in the future!

RedlineMan

Thank you, Sir;

Coming from you, that nearly means something.
-
-
-
-
OK... I did that just to see if I could get you to spew your drink out your nose. Coming from a virtually legendary ex-drover like yourself, that means a lot. Oooops... I did it again.

I'd have one tiny quibble with what you said, however, and it reflects a change in my own instructing as it adapts to the modern era. Most any car seems fast to me, and I am generally a wuss. It occurred to me some time ago that for reasons of pure self preservation I wanted to revise my instructing to focus much earlier on what I feel these people need more than anything else; car feel.

Far from an era when cars like mine were considered quick, and a Carrera of the same vintage was a rocket, the cars today are so far beyond the capabilities of most of the people who own them that it is hard for them to actually learn anything about driving them. How can you learn to deal with a car that moves when that movement comes far beyond a range where the driver with beginning skills can manage it, let alone embrace it, or even see it coming? It's more or less down to luck or electronics anymore. The result is herds of Dickie Speedmasters, all driving Flat Out!

I was having a hard time getting students to understand the concept of maintenance throttle, why do we need it? Unwind, free the car up, your wheels are not straight at track out, feel that wiggle it caused? I'm sitting here lap after lap in this car that is being driven fairly quickly on a decent line, but I just do not get any inkling that this person understands anything about dynamics. I keep saying throttle and unwind over and over and over again, turn after turn after turn, lap after lap after lap, but they do not respond. Why can't they understand the dynamic importance of these things when it is so second nature to me and my advanced driving colleagues? Awareness.

To first understand why you need to correct something, you need to be aware you are DOING it. To understand the importance of a particular input, you need to be aware of the dynamic situation that calls for it, and fairly screams for it sometimes like in the OP video. Awareness.

I decided to break off my teaching of the line when it became merely decent. Good enough to get us around and not be in any body else's way is good enough for me now. The result of proper geometric driving - speed - and my concern over what would occur when it arrived turned my focus away from obsessing over the line. I came to realize that the speed that happened because of my good teaching was setting us firmly in the dangerous cement of the dynamic driving zone (car moves around) with a pupil who had little facility for managing it yet. Wanting to avoid at all costs putting a dynamic driving cart in front of a horse with an empty trick bag, I started looking for ways to remedy this. It is a really tough thing to teach someone how to handle a dynamic car unless it goes dynamic for real, and then how will they fare? Flip a coin? Flip a car? No, you can't tell someone to purposely get out of shape and learn to swim by swimming, so you need to figure out, what is the root of car feel? It is awareness.

Say... I'm going off on quite a tangent. Too bad, I'm on a roll and it has to come out.

Once the line became decent, I told my students of my plan to make them aware of their driving. Aware of every little thing they were doing to the car, most of those being utterly subconscious. Jabbing the brakes, sawing at the wheel, turning in 2-3-4-5 times in a turn, steering away from apexes, and on and on. Feel that wiggle? You caused that. You didn't open the wheel completely straight at track out. You backed off the throttle again after turn in. Most of these criticisms are met with, "I did?" I told them that this would seem picayune and petty to them to some varying extent, but I also told them that the goal was to improve their own awareness of what they were doing to the car, and how that was input was effecting the car's attitude.

Maybe this is not at all revolutionary to some, but it was a long time coming to me. Another new level of awareness opens up when you try this method of focusing early on awareness rather than just the line. If you are careful to make sure the student is not taking the criticisms personally, it can be very instructive to them. Once they become aware of all the little things they are doing, they also can begin to develop the facility for sensing what those things do to the attitude of the car, and this also opens up the facility for judging the effect of new inputs that they have not tried before. They now feel the track out wiggle caused by holding their steering too long and turning out away from the track out area. They feel the nose tuck and then push as they diddle with the throttle mid turn. They feel that little undulation in the pavement, and they might even at some point ask you if they should unwind the steering for just a split second at that spot to reduce the side load that causes the wiggle. It's always cool when a student gets the line, but when the dynamic light bulb comes on, it is stupendous.

Making them aware of basic elements of dynamics before they need the big ones is bound to pay big dividends.

Wow, this was a two drink post! Gargoyle..... more Wine!

CRex

Man, your two drinks must've been stiff ones to give that long a post! You either have a passion for proper driving or you've logged too many hours with students who are dickie speedmasters driving flat-out. Whichever the case, it's a respectable cause.

+100 on cars getting more capable than drivers these days. The unintended effect: mistakes get masked by electronic nannies and good driving takes the backseat as computers keep whisking us out of trouble. I happen to have had a "mulligan" that forces me to think about the hows and whys. If that didn't happen I could've merrily carried on until I literally run into a wall.

Truth is, before this post I showed the same video to other drivers who shared the track that day--many of which clocked stellar times in nice cars--that day alone counted more Gallardo 570s and 430 Scuds than I could remember (of course there was a 458 too... RIP). But the insights I gathered there don't hold a candle to what I picked up here. Quite a stark reminder that faster laptimes don't equate to better command of the car & road these days...

The $64mm question, then, is how do you "teach" or help somebody "develop" awareness?

jrgordonsenior

Along those same lines this is why I use a skid pad to allow drivers (and myself) to feel their car moving under them. Let them push the car faster and faster in a large circle till they spin it then try it again using just throttle inputs to control it. Next time just steering inputs then a combination of both. Great, safe learning tool....

Carrera GT

The skid pad is the place to be. And a humbling experience at the outset, but rewarding once you have begun developing feel -- not to be a drifting *****, but to be able to find the turn-in, balance and slip angle on the those 2nd gear hairpins that the car rewards with faster segment times and less "what the hell do I do?!" from the driver ... after all, there's no use saying you're on a practice lap if you can't say exactly what you're trying to practice ... : )

As for that spin, just look at the throttle position -- it was a simple "don't lift" mistake ... and an insanely lucky escape from a $30K visit to the "diminished resale" penalty box.

And as others have said, full points to you for posting a "blooper" ... reminds me I have a couple of doozies I should cut down and post just for entertainment value.

mark kibort

if you watch your hands, you are not letting the wheel out on exit, which you really should be doing, especially if you are on the gas and accelerating or spinning the rear tires. no counter steering in the world can save that kind of start of a spin. Its like when you are in snow, and you just gas the heck out of the car on a turn, even for a fraction of a second. you gain so much momentium so quickly, you cant save it. thats what I see here. you got both feet in, JUST in time. nice!

mk