Gary R.

Greg, once you race (if you are like most of the people I know, including Paolo) the allure of a DE fades and if it wasn't for instructing, the track refresher, and hanging out with friends (that race with me) I most likely would seldom go. They make for a great "fill in" between races and keep your skills tuned. IMO the key to running at a DE in the highest groups is to have friends with equal cars running with you or it can become quite boring. Never have that problem in a race as, in my case, there are faster D cars and slower E cars and always someone to race!

disasterman

I think that all black and red drivers have considered whether or not they will race. Some head in that direction, others are happy where they are and some are on their way back from competition. There is a place for both but I believe that racing makes you faster (if you're aggressive and comitted), at least that was true for me. At my third DE that was held in conjunction with our club race I saw the race guys lining up on the grid in their gear with their prepped race cars and knew that was where I was going. It is a whole new level of comittment on the track. You take risks on track that are just not a part of DE. In racing there is also no place to hide if you want to run at the front. The expense can be modified if you want to run in Spec Miata or Spec 944 and they are very competitive. Running in NASA GTS2 - GTS5 can get expensive to fight for the podium (depending on your region of course).

docwyte

Still can track the 951 for less than a spec 944. You're still comparing apples and oranges. Brake pads are cheap and I have tons of them from my previous Stoptech ST40 equipped cars.

I run through 1 set of RA1's a season on this car vs the multiple sets needed for spec racing.

Even if I flat tow the car, I still need a truck to do that and a place to store both the truck, race car, spares etc.

Mechanically the race car will break. I've seen what all my friends go through.

I drive the 951 to the track towing my little tire trailer. I swap front brake pads, wheels/tires and go out and have a good time. Then I swap back, turn the A/C and iPod on and drive home.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

dp35

This is a common myth. I bought a used SM for $7K, had the shocks rebuilt, installed all new brakes, got new tires, & didn't touch the engine. Probably spent $2,500 on that stuff. First race, pole position & win in a 67 car field.

If you WANT to, you can easily spend $25K or more having a beautiful new SM built by a top builder. But to say that's what it costs to run up front is a bit of an exaggeration.

mooty

yah, but you aren't being fair here.

you actually know how to drive, i and many other pretend we know how to drive. BIG difference.
anyone who can win SM races on the west coast is a real driver. i have seen how you ppl got 10 wide into T3 at LS, you know afterall track is 3 dimension, you can always drive OVER the car in front of you.

when dean T. told me, this new guy is for real, i listen.
half of the grid in just about any type of racing should just sit on the couch eat popcorn and potatoes. that's why i retired from racing so the real drivers can have fun.

mooty

we intermingle DE and racing too. i just drive pretty much non stop. i am better now, i used to really drive NON stop AND i mean non stop, every session every group.

ANYWAYS, points well taken.
but i think some of us got off in wrong discussion, me as well.

i was talking about DE car xxx vs RACING car xxx. same car, but racing vs DE, then racing IS more expensive. in racing you will get bumped and hit. not everytime, but you will. if you haven't, you will. if you never get bumped you haven't raced. when bumped you need a trailer to get home. that's a race associated cost. sure DE gets bumped too. but that's USUALLY due to stupidity (not all, but usually) while in racing bump may just be "racing"... debatable i know. but keep that in back of our heads.

sure DE a GT3 vs racing a SM, SM may be cheaper.

also depends on mehcanic skill and how OCD one is.
it cost me more to race BSR (spec boxster ) than DE my GT3.
parts are more $ on GT3 yes, but i align the car once a month.
BSR is nut bolted every time it goes out, tires are kept and rotated in tip top shapes, i have 4 sets of wheels so i can manage the tire usage and get most bang for the buck. and managing 16 tires, 8 front 8 rear with different wearing rate is NOT easy. all that add up to cost. and time it takes to haul the race car to track also equates to $. you need to add all that up.

racing is more $$$ than DE period.

that's a FACT, but the extra effort and extra money also brings EXTRA fun and adrenaline rush. there is no free lunch.

btw, i drove my BSR to my first two races, no radio, no ac, no heat, no nothing, 100db or so exhaust stuffed two tires inside car and two others i gave to friends to haul. i had pole both races, lack of experience got me 2nd in the first race and i learned and finished first the next day. stuffed everything back into car and drove it home. pulled over by cop as my exhaust was too loud. i raced with a CA license plate still on the car ;-)

cost is ONE element there's also fear, time, health and other psychological issues preventing ppl from racing.

PS, orig poster assumes that all black red drivers have skills. that's a very big assumption.

Potomac-Greg

This is what got me into NASA. All the HPDE activity points toward time trials and racing. And at most NASA events, HPDEs run with races so you share the same paddock, fuel pumps, air hose and track food. One big happy family.

I did a PCA event last week and got my first ever black flag for taking a pass too late into a turn (because the #@*& guy wouldn't lift to let me by earlier!). I had to dial back my mindset to the PCA-HPDE mindset.

But PCA may have it right for their membership base by keeping an HPDE appealing to the very occasional driver looking to take the GT2 up to triple digit speeds, but otherwise bring it home in one piece. If you want to grow into a racing mode, SCCA or NASA is the ticket.

BostonDMD

Wow, I can’t believe all the responses…… I hope I didn’t strike a nerve for anyone……

A couple of my points:

1) For me the cost of 30 days of DEs is same if not more of the cost of doing 4-5 races/year

2) My closest tracks are Lime Rock 3hrs. WGI and Tremblant 7hrs. Calabogie 9hrs. why would I want to put so many miles on my fancy daily driver/DE warrior?

Therefore the cost of owning a tow vehicle/trailer is not an added cost to me, just smart planning, I was towing my car while doing DEs.

3) My race car is probably 1/3 of the cost of the fancy DD/DE cars, I can ball up mine in a race write it off and still drive home.
I know that nobody ever crashes their car at a DE event, but there is a small possibility right?

This brings us to my final point:

If you are soooooo worried about the extra cost of tires, how can you ever afford to track a DD worth 75-120K with no extra safety equip. i.e. cage, put yourself in an health (hitting a wall) and financial (cost of car) hazard plus be stranded hours away from home if an accident were to happen?

This sport is expensive weather you DE or Race thus I have decided to full advantage of the situation and will never look back.

docwyte

I can't. That's why I have a 21 year old 951 with all the safety equipment installed. (Welded rollbar, fixed back seats, 6 point harnesses, fire suit and HANS)

While I'd rather not ball up the car, I can afford to lose the 951 and have the proper level of safety equipment to hopefully walk away without injury.

If I'm away from my 3 home tracks (that are about 1-1.5 hours from home) I'd have to appeal to friends who have trailers to help me get the wrecked car home. That's the only downside...

Potomac-Greg

Clearly, if your DD is a $150,000 GT3RS, you could use that budget to race much less expensively if you instead had an $80,000 911S, bought a $20,000 race car, and had a $50,000 racing bankroll.

I think the race-versus-DE financial analysis is more relevant when you don't have the $150,000 motoring budget to begin with!

kurt M

Boston. I will bet you a buck you have far more $ in the 2 or 3 years of DE and racing than I have spent in the 12 I have been doing DE and I will even throw in the future 911 race car to the left. Many of the years were spent going to every Potomac event home or away as I was also the Tech chair.

What works and is rocking fun for one guy is 2 layers of extra hassel and work to another. Are you having fun? Am I having fun?

Potomac-Greg

And going racing relieves you of the need to explain to people what HPDE is. You can't put a price on that.

Sterling Doc

A few other points:

1) The cost of a DE car that would keep me entertained anywhere near the level of racing my 944 Spec car is huge. So for equal "entertainment" racing is a bargain. I think many underestimate the level of fun that a "slower" race car provides.

2) HPDE'ing said higher end DE car at a level that would keep me interested would mean higher speeds, and more risk. And this escalates with time. Without any rule structure, very few can resist the urge to tinker; go "a little faster" each year. My last DE car, a VW GTI, ended up with a big turbo, huge appetite for brakes, tires, etc., and a lot of speed (and risk), with less fun than my 944 Spec is now. When I broke a brake rotor, and nearly had "the big one" in my daily driver, it was time to move on to a car that I can push hard with less risk & cost. For all the Spec Miata crashes that our out there, serious injuries are very few, because the speeds are less.

3) Making a car into a good DE machine, makes it a progressively worse street car. A car that would approach the level of involvment of my race car, would make a pretty unlivable street car.

4) Much of what we're out there for is to make memories, have stories to tell when we're old. Racing does a much better job of this, and is a better entertainment "value". Intense experiences, be it the military, med school, or racing make for bonds that are more intense than DE'ing can deliver (not arguing it's still fun, at a different level)

5) DE has no contingencies. Our group of about 8 944 Spec drivers split over $7K of tires, brakes, free parts, etc. And 944 Spec comsumables are cheap to begin with.

6) Being in a tightly knit group has it's advantages - spares are abundant, and there are some ecnomies of scale in group buys, and trackside support. Bennington Motorsports (free plug), provides trackside support for our class for $100/weekend, + $50/hour if you need more than one hour of work on your car. This includes free food, tire temps, fluid check, pit stop service in enduros etc.. There are enough 944's for this to be worthwhile as a sponsorship for him (he sponsors by discounted rates rather than throwing money). I realize this is unusual, but as Joe mentioned, there are opportunities for racing on the cheap, that would be hard or impossible to duplicate with DE'ing. Sponsoring a class of racers seems to be more appealing than DE'ers.

TR6

DDun911

There is no place where Porsche + track =cheap. There may be a few people were money is the decision maker but I think for the majority of people it is a question of the confidence that you are ready. Having just done my first race at Watkins Glen if DE is Beer Racing is Crack.