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Why aren't more Black and Red run group drivers.........

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Old 06-24-2010, 11:35 AM
  #46  
docwyte
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As said previously, it's the time, cost, truck/trailer, potential damage to car, etc, etc.

It costs A LOT to race and more than just dollars. Many people who DE a GT3 don't want to race that car and don't want to sell the GT3 to buy a truck/trailer/race car.
Old 06-24-2010, 11:37 AM
  #47  
M758
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Originally Posted by BostonDMD
racing?

PCA, NASA, whatever floats your boat........

The cost has got to be the same, the fun factor in racing exponentially more......

What is holding people up from jumping to the other side

Disclosure: my first year of DE I did like 30 day, lots of fun, but no comparison to racing even once or twice a year...........(just my opinion)
Some guys are scared. Some guys think it will cost them $$$$$$$$ The rest just don't wan't to.

Racing takes more effort than DE, but if done smartly no more money. (*smartly may mean running slower cheaper car in race than in DE , heck my racing expense are probably less than DE expense for 80% of rennlisters. )
Old 06-24-2010, 11:44 AM
  #48  
M758
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Originally Posted by Gary R.
... If I got to a point where racing my 911 just became impossible I would sell it and race a 944 until things changed or I die.

Why don't people race? It's WAY more that "it's too expensive", which is a joke if you look at the cars some people track. New GT3's, CUP Cars, GT2s, $100K 911s, and on and on. If you drive a 944 to the track AND race it, now that's commitment.

Exactly right. I went from DE in a 944 Turbo S to track only then race 944 NA. Why? Because I knew I could never afford to fee the 944 Turbo tires no keep up the car. I have been racing in 944 spec for years and would much rather run this car in spec class than DE. It takes more metal effort, but from a cost perspective it less than running a 944 Turbo in DE. The reason is tires. I buy two sets of tires per season and useally get 1 set for free due to Toyo contingency. No contingency in DE plus DE needs a more expensive tire. It is great running 225/50 R15 tire.

So all this talk about racing being too expensive is bull and a sham. If you really want to race you can do it for less than DE in a GT3 certainly. So don't use money as the excuse. Just say it like you mean it. Either you are too scared to race or just don't have the desire.


The current 944 spec track recored holder at Mller Motorsports park and 3rd place (of 34) finisher drove his 944 spec 550 miles from his home to the national championship race. Then he drove it back. He did use a trailer however.. The race car towed it.
Old 06-24-2010, 11:46 AM
  #49  
docwyte
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With all due respect, I live 15 minutes from the NASA Spec-"Kool Aid" director and run with that group a lot. I see how much time, effort and YES, MONEY they all spend on attending and racing in the series.

It's WAY more than I spend in a season doing time trials and that doesn't include the tow rig they pretty much all use.
Old 06-24-2010, 11:54 AM
  #50  
M758
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Doc,
it would cost me more $$$ to track an 89 951 with Vitesse stage 2 kit than a 944 spec car. You can sell that 951 buy 944 spec complete race read and then get a set of tires and spend less $$$$ than running DE. 944 spec already runs on cheap long lasting tire. There is no way you run that tire on 951 like yours.
Old 06-24-2010, 11:58 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by M758
Doc,
it would cost me more $$$ to track an 89 951 with Vitesse stage 2 kit than a 944 spec car. You can sell that 951 buy 944 spec complete race read and then get a set of tires and spend less $$$$ than running DE. 944 spec already runs on cheap long lasting tire. There is no way you run that tire on 951 like yours.
To take this analysis further, I think that you can enjoy racing at lower cost without being at the "point of the spear" where the big money gets spent building and refining the fastest car. As long as you have a big enough class so you have someone to race with, then even mediocre racing has to be more fun that HPDE.
Old 06-24-2010, 12:13 PM
  #52  
Astroman
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Originally Posted by Gary R.
Why don't people race? It's WAY more than "it's too expensive", which is a joke if you look at the cars some people track. New GT3's, CUP Cars, GT2s, $100K 911s, and on and on.
+1000. The machinery at the last DE I did was staggering. I've never seen so many GT2s and GT3s in one place.

I used to do 6-7 DEs a year. Now I do ~4 races a year. It's fewer track days overall and it's still more expensive but there's just no comparison (for me). For one thing, I've gotten a lot faster since I started racing.

Nobody has commented on the PCA culture of "DE-er" vs "racer." In my experience, it was "us" against "them." Sure, there are always a few club racers instructing, but oddly it's pretty much two separate groups of people. How did that happen?...

I think more people would race if they were encouraged to race... which doesn't typically happen at PCA DEs... in fact just the opposite.
Old 06-24-2010, 12:28 PM
  #53  
Gary R.
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Originally Posted by Astroman
Sure, there are always a few club racers instructing, but oddly it's pretty much two separate groups of people. How did that happen?...

I think more people would race if they were encouraged to race... which doesn't typically happen at PCA DEs... in fact just the opposite.
It's slowly changing, a lot of the newer instructors in my region are PCA (and NASA) racers. It isn't part of our (or PCA in general) curriculum to promote racing at a DE but it's obvious by our cars and that brings the questions. On the track they see we aren't wild animals out for blood but just guys that enjoy speed and competition.
Old 06-24-2010, 12:28 PM
  #54  
docwyte
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I use the same brand tires as the Spec series does, just a bit bigger. I have 1 set of them vs the multiple sets most of the racers do.

Sure, I could buy a spec 944 for $9000, which is what I bought my 951 for. Then I'd need a truck, trailer, place to store all three, insure the later 2, place to store all the spares, time to work on the race car, fix the inevitable body damage ($$$), mechanical issues ($$$) etc, etc.

I have several friends running spec 944 locally and to say that it's cheaper than me running my 951 in time trials is laughable. I see what they're doing and having to spend in both time and money.
Old 06-24-2010, 01:11 PM
  #55  
M758
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Well I disagree.

I cannot track my stock 951 for less than racing my 944 NA. As for getting to the track. Flat towing works great to minimize costs. One major reason is parts. Parts for the 944 NA are dirt cheap. Turbo parts are either the same or more expensive. Plus if I damage a fender on my 944 I grab hammer and some colored duct tape and... Well you can't see it any more! Brakes are cheaper on my 944 spec than my 951 S. Plus tires are cheaper. Oil is cheaper too since I don't put the same heat in the oil on 300 hp 944 turbo vs a 130 whp 944.

The thing is a 944 spec is the same as 944 turbo, but with 1/2 the power. So even when you drive 20% harder you still work the chassis and engine much less. That is beauty of 944 spec. The fact is if you really want to race you can do it for the same money (or less) than tracking that 951.

Now not everyone wants to race nor should race. It is fine to say "I don't want to". It is another to say "Too expensive" so will track a 951. That is false economy.
Old 06-24-2010, 01:14 PM
  #56  
CAM14
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OK, I’ll bite on this thread. I’ve been racing SCCA and NASA for around 10 years. I was still a Blue Solo with my local PCA DE group when I started to race. I’m been a Red/Instructor for 5 years and find instructing very rewarding but the red run groups are usually just working on car set-up for the next race and burning off old tires. There is nothing like close wheel 2 wheel racing in a Spec series where the key difference is the driver. Also, you will never do an Enduro in a DE. For me endurance events are the best and my amateur racing career high lights are a couple of class podiums at NASA’s 25 Hours of Thunderhill.

Racing is not cheep but does not have to be crazy expensive to have a great time and be locally competitive if you’re willing and able to fix/work on your own equipment and live within a budget. Some classes by there very nature require incur more expense than others. A nice thing about most Spec classes is that you are not constantly chasing the latest and greatest widget, though is still happens to a lesser degree. My mechanical skills have greatly increased saving me large amounts of money and the spec series I race in has a program where I can purchase parts at dealer cost. I recently rebuilt a motor with all new parts (oil and water pumps, pistons, rings, bearing, gasket kit, etc….) and found the process very rewarding but not going to quit my day job to be a mechanic any time soon. My cash out flow for a dyno proved motor was about the same as a junk yard motor. My single largest racing budget item is tires. The Spec series I’m in has a spec tire in a specific size. The cost per tire is really not that bad. But to be competitive, one has to have fresh shaved tires. So now every time my wife wants to buy something, I think of the cost in terms of tires. (Oh no honey, we can not get that now, it costs a full set of shaved tires!) DE’s are a great place to burn off non-competitive tires and free up rims.

Initial start-up cost is the largest financial barrier, do not go cheep with Safety equipment. A professionally installed cage with the appropriate personal safety equipment is worth the investment.

If you neither have the skills nor desire to develop the skill for repairs/maintenance, then you can always rent a seat. I know of several in my area who provide “arrive and drive” services. Not a bad way to go with very low initial start-up cost but if you race a lot, will cost more in the long run.

So, get out there and race. If you’re smart about it and have reasonable expectation, the cost should not stop you. But to be competitive at the national level will cost a lot.

Good luck and hope 2 C U @ the track
Old 06-24-2010, 01:20 PM
  #57  
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As others have said - the type of car you drive has everything to do with the cost. If you compare DE's to racing in a GT3, then yes, racing is WAY more expensive. But what about comparing the cost of DE's in a GT3 to racing a Spec Miata, SRF, Spec 944, etc?

I did DE's for years in a 996, then the Ariel Atom. As I got better, I started "racing" and "winning" at DE's. That, the real possibility of wrecking an expesive car, and the (lack of) talent surrounding me on the track got old.

Thanks in part to threads like this one, the racing seed got planted in my head. This year I bought a Spec Miata for $7K, spent about that much more on it, and now I'm racing & loving it.

One thing that's increased my racing time & money committment was unexpected early success. Now that I'm contending for wins, leading the points, & making national championship plans, the bar has been raised. But for me, its worth it.
Old 06-24-2010, 01:23 PM
  #58  
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To add to my previous post, it helps to have near by friends who share the passion and tools. There is a group of 5 of us that between us, we have engine lifts, couple of drill presses, MIG wilder, plasma cuter, tire changer and balancer, scales and alignment related tools, and many hand tools. We rarely have to farm out work anymore. And I personally find it very rewarding.
Old 06-24-2010, 01:24 PM
  #59  
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The butt of the spear is costly also. To do racing and DE's would put me at the track alot,too much.
Old 06-24-2010, 01:28 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by CAM14
....
Also, you will never do an Enduro in a DE. For me endurance events are the best and my amateur racing career high lights are a couple of class podiums at NASA’s 25 Hours of Thunderhill.
...
Chin Motorsports is pretty close. I've run one hour and 15 min, and could have stayed out longer but wanted a break.

Skippy's Arrive and drive racing series is the closest I've seen to a real spec series. (randomly assigned cars each weekend).

-on the spec tires... new ones are still faster than old ones, and some will buy new every weekend to get an advantage.

I've heard about some 'Claims' racing, where you (an entrant) could buy any car for a specific price, to keep the costs in check.

-I think the time commitment is the suprise for most new racers...


Also, when SM started out, a top 3 car was about 10-12k, now its over 25k!


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